5 ms·

The problem is that the changes you propose rip out the framework that allowed our country to become a leader in many respects, show me a socialist or communist

The problem is that the changes you propose rip out the framework that allowed our country to become a leader in many respects, show me a socialist or communist country that innovates, there are none, they all come to capitalist countries to learn and compete, your missing the forest for the trees mate.

lisper 7y ago
> show me a socialist or communist country that innovates Finland? China?
- nercht12 7y ago
  > Finland? China? The Chinese just steal research papers and pretend they're theirs.
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    The Chinese invented the compass, movable type and other things long before the west. (I'm not Chinese)
  - Frost1x 7y ago
    I'm not Chinese and not a fan of the PRC, but you can't honestly believe all research from China is stolen. Assuming proper nutrition and exposure to education, there are intelligent and innovative people everywhere. Probabilistically speaking, with those assumptions, the larger the population, the more of that innovative potential they're likely to have. Also, it's efficient to steal ideas. I assure you, given the opportunity, businesses in the US frequently steal ideas/IP as well, they're just more careful about it because there's more consequences. Why do you think so many IP lawsuits exist. Furthermore, stealing or copying a successful process is in human nature for survival, heck, it's part of the foundations of evolution. Most people are only concerned when it's their ideas being stolen but not when they "borrow" others'.
    - nercht12 7y ago
      Oh for sure, there are smart people everywhere, as I note in a comment elsewhere. In this case, I was simply returning one overly simply retort with another.
xenospn 7y ago
Yes, of course. That is why the US was the first nation to send a man to space, or have high speed bullet trains, or have accessible healthcare for everyone. Oh wait.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  It only invented transistors, lasers, zippers, the internet, carbon fiber, airbags, information theory, aluminum smelting, television, induction motors, alternating current, radio communications, GPS, LED lamps, florescent lamps, incandescent lamps, nuclear power, magnetic storage, RADAR, refrigeration, solar panels... But hey, the Soviets beat us into space by about a month. All they had to do was murder a million of their political opponents and then starve their people for a few decades. You decide if it was worth it. And if you think the US has a "free market" healthcare system you are quite mistaken.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't do nationalistic or ideological flamewar on HN, even if someone else started it. Also, please don't snark. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
nercht12 7y ago
Capitalism does encourage reward for innovation, which is why it works better... up to a point. Innovative people exist everywhere - it's part of who they are - but when no rewarded, they won't work. What we have in the US is that crafty, selfish businessmen manipulate the system and "invent" all kinds of walls that steal the rewards of innovation for themselves. Now we have tech "giants" and massive corporations that pay peanuts (in comparison with their actual profits off innovation), run the government, and want oppressive laws and treaties like the TPP. As I'm fond of saying: In a capitalistic system, a few people end up with all the money and power. In a communistic system, a few people end up with all the money and power. The means are different, but the result is the same.
cortic 7y ago
People come to the US for its socialist school system, or the security of its socialist policing and fire services. Or the benefits of a socialist military industrial complex that prop up half the country and invest huge amounts into socialist research and development. People come for the security of the socialist banking system named too big to fail. Show me someone who comes for the capitalist healthcare or prison service... There are very few countries in the world that lived by the laissez faire rules of capitalism, because its been a disaster every time.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  People want to go to the US because the US is wealthy. It's wealthy due to private businesses, low corruption, and the rule of law.
  - cortic 7y ago
    Sure, but how much of that is down to the socialist things i listed, and how much is down to Wall street? Even if you believe mostly the latter; The success of the financial services of Wall St and private enterprise in the US is a direct result of socialist policies. Can you imagine any of this success without socialist schools? can you imagine any rule of law with a private police force? If a country is too far socialist or too far capitalist, the result is the same; the few gaining great power and privilege, while the many are powerless and suffering in poverty. Its obvious that a balance is needed, socialism can be very good at leveling the playing field for basic necessities, while regulated capitalism can be good at distributing power hierarchies while remaining fairly efficient. The problem i see us facing right now is that capitalism has had a lobby on political power for fifty years and is preventing this balance, substituting its own power-wealth hungry pseudo-balance. This is why we have difficulty dealing with climate change, and why places like the US are struggling with a universal health system, or why the UK is dismantling theirs.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      Don't US colleges have their own police? The rule of law seems to still apply. And I wouldn't consider the police to be "socialist". >Can you imagine any of this success without socialist schools? Yes.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewar. It's always the same, therefore uninteresting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

lisper 7y ago

> show me a socialist or communist country that innovates Finland? China?

nercht12 7y ago
> Finland? China? The Chinese just steal research papers and pretend they're theirs.
- squarefoot 7y ago
  The Chinese invented the compass, movable type and other things long before the west. (I'm not Chinese)
- Frost1x 7y ago
  I'm not Chinese and not a fan of the PRC, but you can't honestly believe all research from China is stolen. Assuming proper nutrition and exposure to education, there are intelligent and innovative people everywhere. Probabilistically speaking, with those assumptions, the larger the population, the more of that innovative potential they're likely to have. Also, it's efficient to steal ideas. I assure you, given the opportunity, businesses in the US frequently steal ideas/IP as well, they're just more careful about it because there's more consequences. Why do you think so many IP lawsuits exist. Furthermore, stealing or copying a successful process is in human nature for survival, heck, it's part of the foundations of evolution. Most people are only concerned when it's their ideas being stolen but not when they "borrow" others'.
  - nercht12 7y ago
    Oh for sure, there are smart people everywhere, as I note in a comment elsewhere. In this case, I was simply returning one overly simply retort with another.

xenospn 7y ago

Yes, of course. That is why the US was the first nation to send a man to space, or have high speed bullet trains, or have accessible healthcare for everyone. Oh wait.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
It only invented transistors, lasers, zippers, the internet, carbon fiber, airbags, information theory, aluminum smelting, television, induction motors, alternating current, radio communications, GPS, LED lamps, florescent lamps, incandescent lamps, nuclear power, magnetic storage, RADAR, refrigeration, solar panels... But hey, the Soviets beat us into space by about a month. All they had to do was murder a million of their political opponents and then starve their people for a few decades. You decide if it was worth it. And if you think the US has a "free market" healthcare system you are quite mistaken.
dang 7y ago
Please don't do nationalistic or ideological flamewar on HN, even if someone else started it. Also, please don't snark. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

nercht12 7y ago

Capitalism does encourage reward for innovation, which is why it works better... up to a point. Innovative people exist everywhere - it's part of who they are - but when no rewarded, they won't work. What we have in the US is that crafty, selfish businessmen manipulate the system and "invent" all kinds of walls that steal the rewards of innovation for themselves. Now we have tech "giants" and massive corporations that pay peanuts (in comparison with their actual profits off innovation), run the government, and want oppressive laws and treaties like the TPP. As I'm fond of saying: In a capitalistic system, a few people end up with all the money and power. In a communistic system, a few people end up with all the money and power. The means are different, but the result is the same.

cortic 7y ago

People come to the US for its socialist school system, or the security of its socialist policing and fire services. Or the benefits of a socialist military industrial complex that prop up half the country and invest huge amounts into socialist research and development. People come for the security of the socialist banking system named too big to fail. Show me someone who comes for the capitalist healthcare or prison service... There are very few countries in the world that lived by the laissez faire rules of capitalism, because its been a disaster every time.

Mirioron 7y ago
People want to go to the US because the US is wealthy. It's wealthy due to private businesses, low corruption, and the rule of law.
- cortic 7y ago
  Sure, but how much of that is down to the socialist things i listed, and how much is down to Wall street? Even if you believe mostly the latter; The success of the financial services of Wall St and private enterprise in the US is a direct result of socialist policies. Can you imagine any of this success without socialist schools? can you imagine any rule of law with a private police force? If a country is too far socialist or too far capitalist, the result is the same; the few gaining great power and privilege, while the many are powerless and suffering in poverty. Its obvious that a balance is needed, socialism can be very good at leveling the playing field for basic necessities, while regulated capitalism can be good at distributing power hierarchies while remaining fairly efficient. The problem i see us facing right now is that capitalism has had a lobby on political power for fifty years and is preventing this balance, substituting its own power-wealth hungry pseudo-balance. This is why we have difficulty dealing with climate change, and why places like the US are struggling with a universal health system, or why the UK is dismantling theirs.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    Don't US colleges have their own police? The rule of law seems to still apply. And I wouldn't consider the police to be "socialist". >Can you imagine any of this success without socialist schools? Yes.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewar. It's always the same, therefore uninteresting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html