6 ms·

I'm a bit alarmed at how disinterested people are being here. Here is China, a global power, doing all it can to undermine Western countries and amass influence

I'm a bit alarmed at how disinterested people are being here. Here is China, a global power, doing all it can to undermine Western countries and amass influence/power, and nobody here cares. While they steal the IP of the companies that allow us our quality/way of life, you guys are all "Ah, well, we do it too". Well, fuck, I hope so, because the US is the only superpower with anything resembling Western values that I'd like to see remain the dominant value system. And the West is the only cultural sphere that has any interest in things like due process, democracy, free press, freedom of speech, etc., while China and Russia are more than happy to jail anybody who's critical of them or their policies if they can. - A concerned German

YUMad 8y ago
Our own countries conditioned us to think it's no big deal.
tibbydudeza 8y ago
Iraq War The coup against Salvador Allende giving them Pinochet I could go on ... you are confusing Western values that came about even before the US ever existed with US jingoism.
lisq199 8y ago
I completely agree with you. Well said.
chillacy 8y ago
I think it is an issue worth discussing but the way it’s usually framed is from some sort of morally superior position instead of a tactical position. You’ve framed it like a game of chess, which is closer to how geopolitics works in reality, so I can get behind that.
- jplayer01 8y ago
  I used to be more of a pacifist and idealist. The whole "the industrial-military complex is evil" shtick or "US global hegemony is terrible" thing. I've watched all of Chomsky's talks, read his books. I'm painfully aware of all the legit evil things the US has done in the name of protecting its sphere of influence and I've always been deeply suspicious and critical of the US (that whole Iraq war, black sites, etc. tend to be things that don't sit well with people who think values are important). And I probably would've remained that way if I didn't watch on the news how Russia literally annexed a part of Ukraine without a "war" while NATO twiddled its thumbs and went "Well, they didn't invade, so dunno". Or how the US squanders its influence and power while China branches out into Africa, Asia, Europe and the US by buying out everybody and everything they can - meanwhile ensuring they maintain an iron fist over their own press or any critics, and their entire economy and culture and population. In the middle of all this, Europe is in a decade-long crisis over, well, everything and Germany couldn't influence its way out of a paper bag, despite its impressive economy. For all its flaws (and there are a depressing fuckload), I prefer the US's world order over China's, where they can imprison a million Muslims with no repercussion. I just wish the US were better, in every way, because I know there are tons of people who'll point at the US-Mexico border and what Trump has done and say "See, they're just as bad". And they have a point that the US does terrible things, while still missing the point, and it's both infuriating and depressing because if the US actually held itself to its own standards, I wouldn't have to qualify my every statement where I defend the US over China/Russia.
  - chillacy 7y ago
    I totally agree that I would prefer a US world order. I think a lot of people around the world agree. But geopolitics usually just comes down to self interest at the end of the day. And if you look at every action from an inhumanely rational point of view, geopolitics makes more sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
blade123 8y ago
I'll offer a contrasting viewpoint - I'm scared to see people propagate opinions like these though I see why people might believe these things. (In no way do I mean any disrespect to you. Power to you for being brave enough to post what may contribute to an interesting discussion.) For one, these opinions are essentially a list of judgments based on a biased set of observations. There is a difference between making an observation and making a judgement: For example, perhaps you observe that there are few replies on this thread and therefore judge that people are disinterested. Perhaps you observe China is a rising power and you judge that it is gathering power for the purpose of undermining Western countries. Perhaps you observe that Chinese people have copied a lot of Western ideas and you judge what they are doing to be selfish stealing. Perhaps you observe that China doesn't have due process, free press, etc and therefore judge that Chinese authorities are "happy" to jail people. These kinds of judgments tend to attribute intention to behaviors. Such judgments aren't falsifiable nor testable, are too narrowly focused, and they put people at risk of committing fundamental attribution errors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) I suspect people who post opinions like these tend to have some less-than-virtuous private psychological desire they want to fulfill. Perhaps they are projecting their own life metaphors onto abstract geopolitical entities - which I think is often silly. Even though we all know China is a country and not a person, people often personify the abstract entity of _the whole of China_ as “wanting” things or having "values" or being "happy to do anything". Perhaps they think life is supposed to be fair and so they frame the actions of countries in terms of fairness. I don’t think it is always correct to think about countries in terms of these metaphors. Sometimes I also suspect people who have these kinds of opinions to be low-key racist since they are quick to turn observations into more than they are. Perhaps they believe Chinese people are only good at copying people and not making anything original of their own. Perhaps they think Chinese people live in inferior ways and are too inferior to come up with a superior way of living. Perhaps they think it is only natural we should always be drawing negative attention to divergences between what those people do and what we do. I can sympathize with these views but I wonder what the end goal of propagating these views are - is it a war based on an obsession with something related to identity? Or are people calling for help in finding some way to peacefully coexist? Or do people just want to stroke their own ego? It is no great intellectual achievement to come up with a political narrative. Many narratives aren't falsifiable, some are psychologically driven, bias driven, and many should never be considered politically-actionable. It is one thing to be disinterested and another to be informed yet cautious about jumping to judgment.
pizzazzaro 7y ago
Ftfy: I'm a bit alarmed at how disinterested people are being here. Here is the US Government , a global power, doing all it can to undermine national sovereignty and amass influence/power, and nobody here cares. While they steal the resources that allow us our quality/way of life, you guys are all "Ah, well, we do it too". Well, fuck, I hope so, because China is the only superpower doing anything that resembles caring about climate change, and thus human survival. While the West is the only cultural sphere that pretends to any interest in things like due process, democracy, free press, freedom of speech, etc., the US and their constituent companies are more than happy to jail, fire, or otherwise ostracize anyone who's critical of them or their politics.
pizzazzaro 7y ago
Western AI researchers partnered with Chinese surveillance firms - https://www.ft.com/content/41be9878-61d9-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e https://www.ft.com/content/41be9878-61d9-11e9-b285-3acd5d435...
dang 7y ago
Nationalistic flamewar, which this comment crosses into, is not ok here. Please do not post like this to Hacker News, regardless of which nations you're in favor of or against.

YUMad 8y ago

Our own countries conditioned us to think it's no big deal.

tibbydudeza 8y ago

Iraq War The coup against Salvador Allende giving them Pinochet I could go on ... you are confusing Western values that came about even before the US ever existed with US jingoism.

lisq199 8y ago

I completely agree with you. Well said.

chillacy 8y ago

I think it is an issue worth discussing but the way it’s usually framed is from some sort of morally superior position instead of a tactical position. You’ve framed it like a game of chess, which is closer to how geopolitics works in reality, so I can get behind that.

jplayer01 8y ago
I used to be more of a pacifist and idealist. The whole "the industrial-military complex is evil" shtick or "US global hegemony is terrible" thing. I've watched all of Chomsky's talks, read his books. I'm painfully aware of all the legit evil things the US has done in the name of protecting its sphere of influence and I've always been deeply suspicious and critical of the US (that whole Iraq war, black sites, etc. tend to be things that don't sit well with people who think values are important). And I probably would've remained that way if I didn't watch on the news how Russia literally annexed a part of Ukraine without a "war" while NATO twiddled its thumbs and went "Well, they didn't invade, so dunno". Or how the US squanders its influence and power while China branches out into Africa, Asia, Europe and the US by buying out everybody and everything they can - meanwhile ensuring they maintain an iron fist over their own press or any critics, and their entire economy and culture and population. In the middle of all this, Europe is in a decade-long crisis over, well, everything and Germany couldn't influence its way out of a paper bag, despite its impressive economy. For all its flaws (and there are a depressing fuckload), I prefer the US's world order over China's, where they can imprison a million Muslims with no repercussion. I just wish the US were better, in every way, because I know there are tons of people who'll point at the US-Mexico border and what Trump has done and say "See, they're just as bad". And they have a point that the US does terrible things, while still missing the point, and it's both infuriating and depressing because if the US actually held itself to its own standards, I wouldn't have to qualify my every statement where I defend the US over China/Russia.
- chillacy 7y ago
  I totally agree that I would prefer a US world order. I think a lot of people around the world agree. But geopolitics usually just comes down to self interest at the end of the day. And if you look at every action from an inhumanely rational point of view, geopolitics makes more sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

blade123 8y ago

I'll offer a contrasting viewpoint - I'm scared to see people propagate opinions like these though I see why people might believe these things. (In no way do I mean any disrespect to you. Power to you for being brave enough to post what may contribute to an interesting discussion.) For one, these opinions are essentially a list of judgments based on a biased set of observations. There is a difference between making an observation and making a judgement: For example, perhaps you observe that there are few replies on this thread and therefore judge that people are disinterested. Perhaps you observe China is a rising power and you judge that it is gathering power for the purpose of undermining Western countries. Perhaps you observe that Chinese people have copied a lot of Western ideas and you judge what they are doing to be selfish stealing. Perhaps you observe that China doesn't have due process, free press, etc and therefore judge that Chinese authorities are "happy" to jail people. These kinds of judgments tend to attribute intention to behaviors. Such judgments aren't falsifiable nor testable, are too narrowly focused, and they put people at risk of committing fundamental attribution errors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) I suspect people who post opinions like these tend to have some less-than-virtuous private psychological desire they want to fulfill. Perhaps they are projecting their own life metaphors onto abstract geopolitical entities - which I think is often silly. Even though we all know China is a country and not a person, people often personify the abstract entity of _the whole of China_ as “wanting” things or having "values" or being "happy to do anything". Perhaps they think life is supposed to be fair and so they frame the actions of countries in terms of fairness. I don’t think it is always correct to think about countries in terms of these metaphors. Sometimes I also suspect people who have these kinds of opinions to be low-key racist since they are quick to turn observations into more than they are. Perhaps they believe Chinese people are only good at copying people and not making anything original of their own. Perhaps they think Chinese people live in inferior ways and are too inferior to come up with a superior way of living. Perhaps they think it is only natural we should always be drawing negative attention to divergences between what those people do and what we do. I can sympathize with these views but I wonder what the end goal of propagating these views are - is it a war based on an obsession with something related to identity? Or are people calling for help in finding some way to peacefully coexist? Or do people just want to stroke their own ego? It is no great intellectual achievement to come up with a political narrative. Many narratives aren't falsifiable, some are psychologically driven, bias driven, and many should never be considered politically-actionable. It is one thing to be disinterested and another to be informed yet cautious about jumping to judgment.

pizzazzaro 7y ago

Ftfy: I'm a bit alarmed at how disinterested people are being here. Here is the US Government , a global power, doing all it can to undermine national sovereignty and amass influence/power, and nobody here cares. While they steal the resources that allow us our quality/way of life, you guys are all "Ah, well, we do it too". Well, fuck, I hope so, because China is the only superpower doing anything that resembles caring about climate change, and thus human survival. While the West is the only cultural sphere that pretends to any interest in things like due process, democracy, free press, freedom of speech, etc., the US and their constituent companies are more than happy to jail, fire, or otherwise ostracize anyone who's critical of them or their politics.

pizzazzaro 7y ago

Western AI researchers partnered with Chinese surveillance firms - https://www.ft.com/content/41be9878-61d9-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e https://www.ft.com/content/41be9878-61d9-11e9-b285-3acd5d435...

dang 7y ago

Nationalistic flamewar, which this comment crosses into, is not ok here. Please do not post like this to Hacker News, regardless of which nations you're in favor of or against.