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US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if y

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

bbbobbb 7y ago
What does that have to do with anything he said?
b212 7y ago
This is relative. 5000€ is $5623. You can maintain a "normal" life standard around here for about $800 (renting a studio / two room flat in the city centre + all the expenses, no car but I never needed one - the subway takes me to the furthest parts of town in 25 minutes, walking to work is not unusual). So you're saving more or less 5000$ every month. How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own next to your office and still save 5 grand a month? :) Anyway I get your point and in general yeah, US salaries are of course on a whole new level and I won't even argue with that. I'm not trying to say Warsaw is better for programmers than SV because it never was and never will be - yet we still managed, within last 5 years or so, managed to do something you somehow can't do - we trained HRs, agencies, recruiters etc. And they willingly act as we please. Because there's an incredibly high demand for programmers and no one has time for games like US companies play. And I still can't wrap my mind around this - if company Y or X is so desperately seeking for employees and pays them bazillions of dollars - why they even consider burning so much time on the process of hiring? Hiring is hard, I get that, but it's much easier if you disclose the salary. And in Poland right now hiring is impossible if the salary is unknown. And it's not even required by law (though it is supposed to be).
- galfarragem 7y ago
  Bargaining doesn't seem to work at scale (countries with bargaining habits don't do good economically) and it rapidly becomes a big waste of time for everybody.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    As someone who always disliked visiting markets where bargaining is expected, this intrigues me. Can you recommend a book or documentary about this, or maybe explain a bit of the theorized causal connection?
  - adwn 7y ago
    Seconding nitrogen's request – I'm very interested in any pointers to further reading. A potential cause for this effect might be that widespread bargaining reduces a market's efficiency, since prices are less transparent for buyers and sellers.
- njepa 7y ago
  > And I still can't wrap my mind around this - if company Y or X is so desperately seeking for employees and pays them bazillions of dollars - why they even consider burning so much time on the process of hiring? It's a leverage thing. Companies in high cost of living locations can just wait for someone else and they will. That doesn't work in a low cost of living locations, since their isn't much urgency from the perspective of the applicant.
- alain94040 7y ago
  First of all, who cares about base, what matters is total compensation. In Silicon Valley, I would say it takes about 5 years of experience, for good engineers, to rent a nice place close to work, if they want to. See actual data here: https://thestartupconference.com/2018/09/21/about-that-silicon-valley-job/ https://thestartupconference.com/2018/09/21/about-that-silic... After 10 years of experience, you are looking into buying a house. Granted, the price of the house is exhorbitant compared to its size, but that's the market.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - manfredo 7y ago
    I'm a bit dubious of that site. A decent studio can be had for 2000-3000k even I'm SF. A good 2 bedroom apartment with 2 parking spaces and a patio close to Google that I was looking at was only 2.7k. The salaries are also low in my opinion. At just under 4 years experience I'm making 225k yearly in TC, over 170k of that is salary.
- pedrosorio 7y ago
  > How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own next to your office and still save 5 grand a month? :) If you want a nice 1BR apartment ($3000) + a very generous budget for monthly expenses ($3000), you need to earn $11000 after tax to save 5 grand a month - i.e $132k a year. A total compensation of $200k as a single person gets you that much after tax: https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#BKf2kg10BQ https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#BKf2k... Take a look at these sources to see what top companies are paying software engineers in SV (spoiler: it's more than 200k, and you can add ~60% of each dollar above that to your savings): https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.paysa.com/salaries https://www.paysa.com/salaries
rootusrootus 7y ago
That's SV/NYC numbers. Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that.
- twblalock 7y ago
  Even in Silicon Valley there aren’t that many companies other than FAANG offering $200k base salary. $200k total compensation, including stock and bonuses, is a different matter.
- droithomme 7y ago
  > Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that If they are great, they make much much much more than that no matter where they are.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  I guess it depends upon what you mean by "great". In my circle of friends, the people I would call great programmers make 500k+ total compensation regardless of where they live.
  - varjag 7y ago
    why not a million
    - bcrosby95 7y ago
      It's not based on how much they make, but about their abilities.
      - varjag 7y ago
        You literally described their abilities in terms of how much they make.
        bcrosby95 7y ago
daemontus 7y ago
Don't forget it's 200k a year whereas the EU salary is 5k per month - still way below, but as op said: once you factor in the cost of living, it starts to make more sense :)
- Rafert 7y ago
  The salary he mentioned is 5k/month _after_ taxes, so 60k/year. Which according to a Polish income tax calculator I found would be about 85k/year EUR before taxes. With current rates that's about 95k USD. According to Numbeo living in SF is about 2 (groceries) to 5 (rent) times more expensive compared to Warsaw: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Poland&country2=United+States&city1=Warsaw&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- neffy 7y ago
  Not to mention we get free health care and decent holidays with that. A 7 weeks holiday allowance has more than a monetary allowance.
  - pedrosorio 7y ago
    > Not to mention we get free health care The (many) issues with US health care do not affect upper/middle class professionals. From a "patient perspective", as long as you are employed as a software engineer in SV, health care is not a concern at all (insurance is covered by the employer). If anything, it is superior to anything I experienced in Europe.
    - w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
      Except when you really need an efficient health insurrance system, like cancer level efficiency. At least it's what I learnd from following US politics these last 3 years on reddit.
      - selectodude 7y ago
        Having a lot of money is really the sole area where US health care actually is the best in the world. Efficiency is somebody else’s problem.
dv_dt 7y ago
This is because a sr programmer with experience and likely a family needs to think about saving for healthcare, retirement, education costs for children, housing costs that may also be more inefficient or expensive in the US than other nations
sidlls 7y ago
These are not normal base salaries even for senior programmers in the bay area. The 60th percentile for senior software engineers is around $180k per year in the Bay Area. Total compensation is commonly $200k or more, easily, but not base. Outside of the Bay Area, even in NY, Chicago, etc., base salaries are lower. In most places they're much lower--below $100k.
- chronogram 7y ago
  Those are not nett salaries are they? So keep in mind in Europe it can be 5k times 2 times 12=120k. (How to use asterisks here?)
  - sidlls 7y ago
    A 50th percentile base salary for a senior engineer in the Bay Area is around $150k-$160k per year. Most companies offer a cash bonus (10%-15% of base); including this puts a typical cash compensation total for a 50th percentile senior engineer is between $165k and $184k per year. Most companies offer stock, but the grant and value of these varies wildly. Public companies' stock is actually worth something but you have your places like Google where RSU grants are a huge portion of salary and other places where it's closer to the cash bonus portion of salary. This is all gross, pre-deduction salary; not salary net of taxes, deductions, etc.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      Base salary is a ruse. Median total compensation for qualified experts in the bay is currently $450-750k at reputable firms. Everyone knows this. Any company offering less is simply not in the running and is staffed by absolute morons and won't make it. So sad to be them.
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        What's your bar for "qualified expert" in this context?

bbbobbb 7y ago

What does that have to do with anything he said?

b212 7y ago

This is relative. 5000€ is $5623. You can maintain a "normal" life standard around here for about $800 (renting a studio / two room flat in the city centre + all the expenses, no car but I never needed one - the subway takes me to the furthest parts of town in 25 minutes, walking to work is not unusual). So you're saving more or less 5000$ every month. How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own next to your office and still save 5 grand a month? :) Anyway I get your point and in general yeah, US salaries are of course on a whole new level and I won't even argue with that. I'm not trying to say Warsaw is better for programmers than SV because it never was and never will be - yet we still managed, within last 5 years or so, managed to do something you somehow can't do - we trained HRs, agencies, recruiters etc. And they willingly act as we please. Because there's an incredibly high demand for programmers and no one has time for games like US companies play. And I still can't wrap my mind around this - if company Y or X is so desperately seeking for employees and pays them bazillions of dollars - why they even consider burning so much time on the process of hiring? Hiring is hard, I get that, but it's much easier if you disclose the salary. And in Poland right now hiring is impossible if the salary is unknown. And it's not even required by law (though it is supposed to be).

galfarragem 7y ago
Bargaining doesn't seem to work at scale (countries with bargaining habits don't do good economically) and it rapidly becomes a big waste of time for everybody.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  As someone who always disliked visiting markets where bargaining is expected, this intrigues me. Can you recommend a book or documentary about this, or maybe explain a bit of the theorized causal connection?
- adwn 7y ago
  Seconding nitrogen's request – I'm very interested in any pointers to further reading. A potential cause for this effect might be that widespread bargaining reduces a market's efficiency, since prices are less transparent for buyers and sellers.
njepa 7y ago
> And I still can't wrap my mind around this - if company Y or X is so desperately seeking for employees and pays them bazillions of dollars - why they even consider burning so much time on the process of hiring? It's a leverage thing. Companies in high cost of living locations can just wait for someone else and they will. That doesn't work in a low cost of living locations, since their isn't much urgency from the perspective of the applicant.
alain94040 7y ago
First of all, who cares about base, what matters is total compensation. In Silicon Valley, I would say it takes about 5 years of experience, for good engineers, to rent a nice place close to work, if they want to. See actual data here: https://thestartupconference.com/2018/09/21/about-that-silicon-valley-job/ https://thestartupconference.com/2018/09/21/about-that-silic... After 10 years of experience, you are looking into buying a house. Granted, the price of the house is exhorbitant compared to its size, but that's the market.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- manfredo 7y ago
  I'm a bit dubious of that site. A decent studio can be had for 2000-3000k even I'm SF. A good 2 bedroom apartment with 2 parking spaces and a patio close to Google that I was looking at was only 2.7k. The salaries are also low in my opinion. At just under 4 years experience I'm making 225k yearly in TC, over 170k of that is salary.
pedrosorio 7y ago
> How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own next to your office and still save 5 grand a month? :) If you want a nice 1BR apartment ($3000) + a very generous budget for monthly expenses ($3000), you need to earn $11000 after tax to save 5 grand a month - i.e $132k a year. A total compensation of $200k as a single person gets you that much after tax: https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#BKf2kg10BQ https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#BKf2k... Take a look at these sources to see what top companies are paying software engineers in SV (spoiler: it's more than 200k, and you can add ~60% of each dollar above that to your savings): https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.paysa.com/salaries https://www.paysa.com/salaries

rootusrootus 7y ago

That's SV/NYC numbers. Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that.

twblalock 7y ago
Even in Silicon Valley there aren’t that many companies other than FAANG offering $200k base salary. $200k total compensation, including stock and bonuses, is a different matter.
droithomme 7y ago
> Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that If they are great, they make much much much more than that no matter where they are.
bcrosby95 7y ago
I guess it depends upon what you mean by "great". In my circle of friends, the people I would call great programmers make 500k+ total compensation regardless of where they live.
- varjag 7y ago
  why not a million
  - bcrosby95 7y ago
    It's not based on how much they make, but about their abilities.
    - varjag 7y ago
      You literally described their abilities in terms of how much they make.
      - bcrosby95 7y ago

daemontus 7y ago

Don't forget it's 200k a year whereas the EU salary is 5k per month - still way below, but as op said: once you factor in the cost of living, it starts to make more sense :)

Rafert 7y ago
The salary he mentioned is 5k/month _after_ taxes, so 60k/year. Which according to a Polish income tax calculator I found would be about 85k/year EUR before taxes. With current rates that's about 95k USD. According to Numbeo living in SF is about 2 (groceries) to 5 (rent) times more expensive compared to Warsaw: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Poland&country2=United+States&city1=Warsaw&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
neffy 7y ago
Not to mention we get free health care and decent holidays with that. A 7 weeks holiday allowance has more than a monetary allowance.
- pedrosorio 7y ago
  > Not to mention we get free health care The (many) issues with US health care do not affect upper/middle class professionals. From a "patient perspective", as long as you are employed as a software engineer in SV, health care is not a concern at all (insurance is covered by the employer). If anything, it is superior to anything I experienced in Europe.
  - w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
    Except when you really need an efficient health insurrance system, like cancer level efficiency. At least it's what I learnd from following US politics these last 3 years on reddit.
    - selectodude 7y ago
      Having a lot of money is really the sole area where US health care actually is the best in the world. Efficiency is somebody else’s problem.

dv_dt 7y ago

This is because a sr programmer with experience and likely a family needs to think about saving for healthcare, retirement, education costs for children, housing costs that may also be more inefficient or expensive in the US than other nations

sidlls 7y ago

These are not normal base salaries even for senior programmers in the bay area. The 60th percentile for senior software engineers is around $180k per year in the Bay Area. Total compensation is commonly $200k or more, easily, but not base. Outside of the Bay Area, even in NY, Chicago, etc., base salaries are lower. In most places they're much lower--below $100k.

chronogram 7y ago
Those are not nett salaries are they? So keep in mind in Europe it can be 5k times 2 times 12=120k. (How to use asterisks here?)
- sidlls 7y ago
  A 50th percentile base salary for a senior engineer in the Bay Area is around $150k-$160k per year. Most companies offer a cash bonus (10%-15% of base); including this puts a typical cash compensation total for a 50th percentile senior engineer is between $165k and $184k per year. Most companies offer stock, but the grant and value of these varies wildly. Public companies' stock is actually worth something but you have your places like Google where RSU grants are a huge portion of salary and other places where it's closer to the cash bonus portion of salary. This is all gross, pre-deduction salary; not salary net of taxes, deductions, etc.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    Base salary is a ruse. Median total compensation for qualified experts in the bay is currently $450-750k at reputable firms. Everyone knows this. Any company offering less is simply not in the running and is staffed by absolute morons and won't make it. So sad to be them.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      What's your bar for "qualified expert" in this context?