4 ms·

It's an inherently high-paying field with room for both huge advancement and a lot of specificity/niches, not to mention that by its nature software engineering

by ketzo 8y ago

It's an inherently high-paying field with room for both huge advancement and a lot of specificity/niches, not to mention that by its nature software engineering creates more software engineering jobs. God forbid we open that up to people who should be resigned to whatever you think "blue collar" means?

toomuchtodo 8y ago
When you increase supply, wages decrease. Wages will decline if you open the field up to everyone. Understandably, not everyone in tech wants wages to decline. If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. What you're saying is, "God forbid you care about your quality of life so much you're not willing to keep running harder, faster on a treadmill until you lose your job and are no longer able to find another one due to so many candidates applying per job". No thanks. There's nothing wrong with trades and blue collar work. There's a reason you can't outsource plumbers, electricians, and other technicians who must be on site to practice their craft. But there's also a reason that work is so expensive: the skills required take time to acquire, and there's a limited pool of talent with those skills. Disclaimer: My personal stance is I want the labor market as tight as possible, for as long as possible, to push wages up for as many people as possible, while using government policy to put backstops in place that are progressively ratcheted forward.
- cardine 8y ago
  >If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice? It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for themselves, and god forbid others for trying to help them."
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    > Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, without any benefit to them.
    - cardine 8y ago
      Your argument is "I got mine fuck everyone else" which I think is about as uncompelling as an argument gets. My argument is that getting more people into tech increases opportunities and raises the standards of living for everyone. When entire industries are disappearing due to automation I think it is rather ridiculous to try to restrict people from becoming programmers. You are right, it is not your choice, and thankfully society is making a very different choice.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        We restrict immigrants to the US so we don’t flood the country with low skilled labor. Most first world countries do this. We’re reducing H1Bs, as they were used to depress wages. This is no different, and it saddens me that you think this is “I got mine fuck you”. Is that what you think of the GM workers losing their jobs in Ohio? I desire high wages for as many workers as possible.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        aiisjustanif 8y ago
        Good point.
- int_19h 8y ago
  > it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline By your own logic, every time I help someone learn something to do with coding - for free - I undermine the wages of everybody else in the market whose job that person is going to be able to "steal" now. And yet it is my choice to do so.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    It is your choice, and I fully support you having that choice. I speak of doing so at scale. You alone aren’t going to cause industry wide wage depression.

by ketzo 8y ago

toomuchtodo 8y ago

When you increase supply, wages decrease. Wages will decline if you open the field up to everyone. Understandably, not everyone in tech wants wages to decline. If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. What you're saying is, "God forbid you care about your quality of life so much you're not willing to keep running harder, faster on a treadmill until you lose your job and are no longer able to find another one due to so many candidates applying per job". No thanks. There's nothing wrong with trades and blue collar work. There's a reason you can't outsource plumbers, electricians, and other technicians who must be on site to practice their craft. But there's also a reason that work is so expensive: the skills required take time to acquire, and there's a limited pool of talent with those skills. Disclaimer: My personal stance is I want the labor market as tight as possible, for as long as possible, to push wages up for as many people as possible, while using government policy to put backstops in place that are progressively ratcheted forward.

cardine 8y ago
>If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice? It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for themselves, and god forbid others for trying to help them."
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  > Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, without any benefit to them.
  - cardine 8y ago
    Your argument is "I got mine fuck everyone else" which I think is about as uncompelling as an argument gets. My argument is that getting more people into tech increases opportunities and raises the standards of living for everyone. When entire industries are disappearing due to automation I think it is rather ridiculous to try to restrict people from becoming programmers. You are right, it is not your choice, and thankfully society is making a very different choice.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      We restrict immigrants to the US so we don’t flood the country with low skilled labor. Most first world countries do this. We’re reducing H1Bs, as they were used to depress wages. This is no different, and it saddens me that you think this is “I got mine fuck you”. Is that what you think of the GM workers losing their jobs in Ohio? I desire high wages for as many workers as possible.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - aiisjustanif 8y ago
        Good point.
int_19h 8y ago
> it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline By your own logic, every time I help someone learn something to do with coding - for free - I undermine the wages of everybody else in the market whose job that person is going to be able to "steal" now. And yet it is my choice to do so.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  It is your choice, and I fully support you having that choice. I speak of doing so at scale. You alone aren’t going to cause industry wide wage depression.