3 ms·

But there are so many other options we aren't doing either! We aren't offering treatment for free or even making sure there is enough treatment available. We a

But there are so many other options we aren't doing either! We aren't offering treatment for free or even making sure there is enough treatment available. We are more likely to put them in jail for a small crime instead. Same with drug addiction: We tend not to offer free, medical based care and instead refer folks to AA or NA. I understand that some folks are helped by these organizations, but many are not. We don't make sure folks have homes. Sometimes, simple solutions like driving a person to their home over and over is enough of a solution. If someone really wants to life outdoors, we could make room for such things while making sure things look nice and are secure. We could have an actual safety net too keep folks from homelessness in the first place. We can invest more in group homes as well, since some folks need help with everyday tasks. Some folks need this long term and some are just short term. Have enough shelters for the folks that slip through the cracks. Make sure these shelters are safe for disabled folks, children, and everyone in between. I know all this stuff costs money, and I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes so that folks are being fed and housed and have medical care and things like that. Honestly, we are paying for this stuff in one way or another anyway through our jail system, public services, and so on, so I'm not convinced it would have been that much mroe than it was when I was living in the US anyway.

luckylion 8y ago
> I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes How much more? I'm not trying to argue against what you're saying, but I believe that many Americans don't have a good idea of what it costs to run a Western European welfare state. What's the pain maximum for you? 10% more taxes? 50% more? 100% more?
- rutierut 8y ago
  Americans are currently paying more for an inferior product for no good reason at all.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    That's because we'll gladly be gouged on prices as long as it's not called a tax. Internet? No problem there having zero alternatives in your area. Healthcare? Nightmare inducing and literally bankrupts people that even barely touch it, but it's not a tax.
- roel_v 8y ago
  As a European who's done the math several times over the last decade, my impression is that Americans in desirable states pay about as much in taxes (when you account for everything) as Western Europeans. For some things the results are better, for others they're worse, but overall I don't think there's all that much difference.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    I don't know about other countries, but I've not seen the math come out in favor for Germany. 45% max federal income (with 43% quite easily reached), 19% VAT, high taxes on energy consumption. Even in high tax states like California, you don't usually reach those levels. Using the -yes, flawed- tax freedom day gives a pretty good picture, I believe.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      Don't forget that in Germany your taxes pay for more services than in the US, like universal healthcare. Once you deduct out the cost of all the extra services that your taxes provide for you in Germany (and that they don't provide here), Germany wins. Healthcare is insanely expensive here in the US -- over $10k per person per year (so easily $20k per year for a family plan or more), some of which is born by employers.
      - luckylion 8y ago
        > like universal healthcare Nope, we pay that on top, currently ~14% of your salary (half of which is paid directly by the employer), the same goes for pensions etc. You do get free healthcare only if you're unemployed, but that's not reality for most Germans.
      - 0815test 8y ago
        The thing is that the taxes you pay in Germany don't pay for national defense - that's something that Germany gets for free by free-riding on US taxpayers. And the healthcare you get in socialized healthcare systems like the NHS or what they have in Germany is just barely sufficient - you could get the same deal in the U.S. by signing up with a HMO, and no one does because of how limiting it is. It's basically a wash, and the U.S., while worse at basic healthcare provision (due to pervasive regulatory capture in the whole system, which raises costs far higher than elsewhere) is still better at many other things.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  These numbers are absurd. There aren't nearly enough homeless people to drive taxes up by that degree; it'd still be well under 1% of your total tax burden. Plus, we're already paying for homelessness and mental illness anyway in the form of tax money that goes to the police, jails, and hospitals. A lot of people say that it would be cheaper to provide housing and support rather than continue the cycle of police, jail, and emergency medical treatment involvement.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    > There aren't nearly enough homeless people to drive taxes up by that degree Sure, but a welfare state isn't just about open homelessness, it's about free education, free health care etc as well.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      1. You're setting a record here in moving goalposts. 2. Free public education has made this country what it is today. We wouldn't be one-tenth the world power we are now if we hadn't educated our citizenry to create a high knowledge work force. Killing off education and leaving the majority of the population uneducated would be the single best one change you could make to turn us into a third world country. It's the ultimate in short-termist thinking.
      - luckylion 8y ago
        > 1. You're setting a record here in moving goalposts. No, you're replying in a subthread that you didn't want to apparently. To quote myself: "I believe that many Americans don't have a good idea of what it costs to run a Western European welfare state". > Free public education has made this country what it is today Possibly. I think high skill immigration has also played a very strong role. And again, since nobody is reading what I'm writing before flagging or angrily replying: I'm not arguing that a high tax welfare state is necessarily a bad idea. While I do believe that it creates bad incentives and has to be very well calibrated (which is hard and usually fails in my experience), that's not what this is about. The point is that it does not come for free. You will have to pay for it, and you will pay via taxes. You should be aware of that, and I'm interested in finding out how much more people are willing to pay. The reactions I get (anger, disbelief, flagging) lead me to believe that people are vaguely aware of that fact, but don't want to face it. I suggest they do before they implement it.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  I am American and moved to Norway. If you didn't know, Norway is known for high taxes and a quite extensive welfare system. I lived in Indiana. In neither place have I had a good-paying job. But hands down, Norway is cheaper. Taxes include healthcare and my tax rate has been just slightly higher than it was total in the states, and many times lower than taxes + health coverage + deductibe + out of pocket. There are lots of hidden consumption taxes: VAT is 25% on most things, 15% on food, but there is none on books and newspapers. A TV lisence is a thing. On the other hand, they try to make sure poor folks have internet and phone service. I do think the top tax rate is about half of one's income, which is fine with me if I'm making more money. I'm fine with VAT and things like that. The thing folks also forget is that some things are actually cheaper when centralized and spread out and coordinated. This works really well in health care because you can do cost evaluation on costs of covering a home nurse a few times a day vs a nursing home. Americans also forget that one of the missing bits in American society is trust in the government. Folks here don't believe the government is perfect, but most of the bureaucratic bits just work, and lots of them are online and easily accessible.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    I'm not arguing that a welfare state is a bad idea, I'm just saying that you won't get it for what you'd currently pay in the US. I believe that many people don't actually know what it would entail - for example that you'll typically land in a federal income tax bracket about double the rate compared to the US for a similar income if you're in Germany. If it works out for you to live cheaper in Norway, that's great, but Norway has a very special position due to the vast oil wealth, that's not typical for Western Europe. Also, I'd love for HN to stop flagging just because they disagree politically. It's so annoying to get timed out because of a civil exchange of arguments and opinions. Always look for light in the dark: this community has convinced me that direct democracy isn't a solution for moderation - it means giving the power to censor to those who are most willing to use it.
lixtra 8y ago
> I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes That’s a everybody should pay more taxes in disguise. If it was only your taxes, nobody is holding you back to support a charity of your choice to do the job you want to be done. But please let me support the charity of my choice instead of paying more taxes.

luckylion 8y ago

> I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes How much more? I'm not trying to argue against what you're saying, but I believe that many Americans don't have a good idea of what it costs to run a Western European welfare state. What's the pain maximum for you? 10% more taxes? 50% more? 100% more?

rutierut 8y ago
Americans are currently paying more for an inferior product for no good reason at all.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  That's because we'll gladly be gouged on prices as long as it's not called a tax. Internet? No problem there having zero alternatives in your area. Healthcare? Nightmare inducing and literally bankrupts people that even barely touch it, but it's not a tax.
roel_v 8y ago
As a European who's done the math several times over the last decade, my impression is that Americans in desirable states pay about as much in taxes (when you account for everything) as Western Europeans. For some things the results are better, for others they're worse, but overall I don't think there's all that much difference.
- luckylion 8y ago
  I don't know about other countries, but I've not seen the math come out in favor for Germany. 45% max federal income (with 43% quite easily reached), 19% VAT, high taxes on energy consumption. Even in high tax states like California, you don't usually reach those levels. Using the -yes, flawed- tax freedom day gives a pretty good picture, I believe.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    Don't forget that in Germany your taxes pay for more services than in the US, like universal healthcare. Once you deduct out the cost of all the extra services that your taxes provide for you in Germany (and that they don't provide here), Germany wins. Healthcare is insanely expensive here in the US -- over $10k per person per year (so easily $20k per year for a family plan or more), some of which is born by employers.
    - luckylion 8y ago
      > like universal healthcare Nope, we pay that on top, currently ~14% of your salary (half of which is paid directly by the employer), the same goes for pensions etc. You do get free healthcare only if you're unemployed, but that's not reality for most Germans.
    - 0815test 8y ago
      The thing is that the taxes you pay in Germany don't pay for national defense - that's something that Germany gets for free by free-riding on US taxpayers. And the healthcare you get in socialized healthcare systems like the NHS or what they have in Germany is just barely sufficient - you could get the same deal in the U.S. by signing up with a HMO, and no one does because of how limiting it is. It's basically a wash, and the U.S., while worse at basic healthcare provision (due to pervasive regulatory capture in the whole system, which raises costs far higher than elsewhere) is still better at many other things.
CydeWeys 8y ago
These numbers are absurd. There aren't nearly enough homeless people to drive taxes up by that degree; it'd still be well under 1% of your total tax burden. Plus, we're already paying for homelessness and mental illness anyway in the form of tax money that goes to the police, jails, and hospitals. A lot of people say that it would be cheaper to provide housing and support rather than continue the cycle of police, jail, and emergency medical treatment involvement.
- luckylion 8y ago
  > There aren't nearly enough homeless people to drive taxes up by that degree Sure, but a welfare state isn't just about open homelessness, it's about free education, free health care etc as well.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    1. You're setting a record here in moving goalposts. 2. Free public education has made this country what it is today. We wouldn't be one-tenth the world power we are now if we hadn't educated our citizenry to create a high knowledge work force. Killing off education and leaving the majority of the population uneducated would be the single best one change you could make to turn us into a third world country. It's the ultimate in short-termist thinking.
    - luckylion 8y ago
      > 1. You're setting a record here in moving goalposts. No, you're replying in a subthread that you didn't want to apparently. To quote myself: "I believe that many Americans don't have a good idea of what it costs to run a Western European welfare state". > Free public education has made this country what it is today Possibly. I think high skill immigration has also played a very strong role. And again, since nobody is reading what I'm writing before flagging or angrily replying: I'm not arguing that a high tax welfare state is necessarily a bad idea. While I do believe that it creates bad incentives and has to be very well calibrated (which is hard and usually fails in my experience), that's not what this is about. The point is that it does not come for free. You will have to pay for it, and you will pay via taxes. You should be aware of that, and I'm interested in finding out how much more people are willing to pay. The reactions I get (anger, disbelief, flagging) lead me to believe that people are vaguely aware of that fact, but don't want to face it. I suggest they do before they implement it.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
I am American and moved to Norway. If you didn't know, Norway is known for high taxes and a quite extensive welfare system. I lived in Indiana. In neither place have I had a good-paying job. But hands down, Norway is cheaper. Taxes include healthcare and my tax rate has been just slightly higher than it was total in the states, and many times lower than taxes + health coverage + deductibe + out of pocket. There are lots of hidden consumption taxes: VAT is 25% on most things, 15% on food, but there is none on books and newspapers. A TV lisence is a thing. On the other hand, they try to make sure poor folks have internet and phone service. I do think the top tax rate is about half of one's income, which is fine with me if I'm making more money. I'm fine with VAT and things like that. The thing folks also forget is that some things are actually cheaper when centralized and spread out and coordinated. This works really well in health care because you can do cost evaluation on costs of covering a home nurse a few times a day vs a nursing home. Americans also forget that one of the missing bits in American society is trust in the government. Folks here don't believe the government is perfect, but most of the bureaucratic bits just work, and lots of them are online and easily accessible.
- luckylion 8y ago
  I'm not arguing that a welfare state is a bad idea, I'm just saying that you won't get it for what you'd currently pay in the US. I believe that many people don't actually know what it would entail - for example that you'll typically land in a federal income tax bracket about double the rate compared to the US for a similar income if you're in Germany. If it works out for you to live cheaper in Norway, that's great, but Norway has a very special position due to the vast oil wealth, that's not typical for Western Europe. Also, I'd love for HN to stop flagging just because they disagree politically. It's so annoying to get timed out because of a civil exchange of arguments and opinions. Always look for light in the dark: this community has convinced me that direct democracy isn't a solution for moderation - it means giving the power to censor to those who are most willing to use it.

lixtra 8y ago

> I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes That’s a everybody should pay more taxes in disguise. If it was only your taxes, nobody is holding you back to support a charity of your choice to do the job you want to be done. But please let me support the charity of my choice instead of paying more taxes.