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I'm not sure if laws in Western Europe are fundamentally different. In the Netherlands the law[1][2] states you can only be involuntarily committed if you're a

I'm not sure if laws in Western Europe are fundamentally different. In the Netherlands the law[1][2] states you can only be involuntarily committed if you're a danger for themselves or others and if this is the only remaining solution. It seems roughly analogous to those two SCOTUS cases, although details and/or practical implementations may differ. [1]: https://www.ggznederland.nl/themas/gedwongen-civiel https://www.ggznederland.nl/themas/gedwongen-civiel [2]: https://www.dwangindezorg.nl/rechten/wetten/wet-bopz https://www.dwangindezorg.nl/rechten/wetten/wet-bopz

stefanfisk 8y ago
It’s the same in Sweden, I think most of Europe is like this since at least 30 years.
dr_dshiv 8y ago
Any other refs on how the Netherlands deals with homeless? I am shocked by how few homeless there are.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chronogram 8y ago
  I think it's just that you're not allowed to be sleeping outside. There are still about 200 actively homeless people (as in, sleeping outside) in Amsterdam, which isn't much for a city of around 1 million people. There are shelters, and there's the social net to fall in, in case you cannot afford to live or get medical help. If you get cancer it won't mean you'll have so many bills you'll have to live outside. If you have disability, mental or otherwise, it doesn't mean you'll have to rely on the generosity of your family to be able to survive. And if you do sleep outside the police will likely make you not is my understanding.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    Doesn't Amsterdam have a number of "squatters" living semiofficially in otherwise abandoned buildings?
    - rogerb 8y ago
      That was a thing for a while to protest real estate speculators, but its considerable less now.
    - chronogram 8y ago
      Wasn’t that in the ‘80s?
- rosege 8y ago
  I'm currently traveling around Europe. In Spain, Germany and Austria I'm seeing a lot more homeless and beggars since the migrant crisis of the last few years. Germany allowed 1 million to settle so it's not a surprise really. They do seem to prefer to be homeless in Europe rather than be in their home countries from the couple that I've spoken to.
- Carpetsmoker 8y ago
  I think it's far more involved than just "dealing with the homeless". After I moved to the UK a few years ago (from NL) was shocked by the amount of homeless people. After renting for two years I was evicted with a 2-month notice for what was essentially a simple disagreement with the landlord. They didn't even attempt to resolve it: they just evicted me. It took me over half a year to get half of my £1 100 deposit back; they initially tried to charge me £1 400, mostly for bullshit general maintenance and/or lying about either the initial state – even though it was unambiguously stated in the original inventory – or agreements we had made about the checkout condition (I asked if I had to fix a few minor issues, they said no, and then charged me anyway). About £100 was reasonable, the rest wasn't. My point here is, all of this would be highly illegal in the Netherlands. You can't just evict people because you feel like it, and you can't just send a bill well over a month later for all sorts of items (or maybe you can, but it's certainly not common[1]). It's not hard to imagine how I could have ended up homeless if I had been more vulnerable – for example by actually needing that £1 100 deposit for a new deposit, or suffering from depression or other mental illness, etc. I think homelessness is a complex problem, and dealing with people after they become homeless is a only a part of it. This is not very scientific, but in general, I've observed that homelessness is correlated with the amount of empathy in a society, which is something that affects many laws and attitudes. [1]: A little footnote: technically also not legal in the UK, but they interpret "notify about deductions within 10 days" as "send standard form letter that there may be some deductions within 10 days", which is obviously not the same. But ... what can you do about stuff like this as a tenant, right? I might have considered the small claims court, but have since left the UK as I was fed up. Even "notify within 10 days" is already very strange, as this means they have all the time to collect all the evidence, while robbing me the chance of actually giving any sort of counter-argument. In NL, it's always been arranged at the checkout, with both parties present.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    I haven't rented in ages, but every time I have, we had a walk-through with the landlord upon leaving the property. As you say, that's the only way to ensure both parties have a fair chance at keeping/regaining whatever part of the deposit they are due. That said, I also never rented in a major city. Mostly during college in a small city, and while most students were a bit clueless, their mostly middle-class parents were not. Then a few homes after college, but again, in a wealthy suburb where tenants typically had the means to enforce their rights via the courts.
- rocqua 8y ago
  It exists, but there is not a lot of it, and it is not visible. I've often been asked for money for the homeless shelter, as far as I can tell, the municipal shelter really does cost money, though not a lot. Also, if I take a detour going home from work I come across a shanty town I'm pretty sure is illegal but tolerated. A lot of this comes down to the municipalities though, which recently clashed with national politics on the subject of shelter for rejected immigrants. Some municipalities (including mine) wanted to provide bed bath and bread to these people. On a national level, the policy was to force these people to leave the country, as they were here illegally. I imagine some of the more christian rural municipalities have a much harsher approach towards homeless people. It's probably effective as well, insofar as it pushes the homeless people out. There has been a bit of an issue with what the police calls 'confused people'. These are the people with psychiatric issues that are a burden to people around them, but not enough to warrant forced institutionalization. Instead, every time something boils over, the police have to be called. It is very hard to get some of these people evicted, even when they routinely tear up their house and bother neighbors to the point of police involvement. This is not a homeless issue though. Just one of psychiatric care.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  Stastistically, there are twice as many homeless than in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... Perhaps they are well-hidden?
- rayiner 8y ago
  Rates of homelessness in the Netherlands are overall the same as in the US.

stefanfisk 8y ago

It’s the same in Sweden, I think most of Europe is like this since at least 30 years.

dr_dshiv 8y ago

Any other refs on how the Netherlands deals with homeless? I am shocked by how few homeless there are.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chronogram 8y ago
I think it's just that you're not allowed to be sleeping outside. There are still about 200 actively homeless people (as in, sleeping outside) in Amsterdam, which isn't much for a city of around 1 million people. There are shelters, and there's the social net to fall in, in case you cannot afford to live or get medical help. If you get cancer it won't mean you'll have so many bills you'll have to live outside. If you have disability, mental or otherwise, it doesn't mean you'll have to rely on the generosity of your family to be able to survive. And if you do sleep outside the police will likely make you not is my understanding.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Doesn't Amsterdam have a number of "squatters" living semiofficially in otherwise abandoned buildings?
  - rogerb 8y ago
    That was a thing for a while to protest real estate speculators, but its considerable less now.
  - chronogram 8y ago
    Wasn’t that in the ‘80s?
rosege 8y ago
I'm currently traveling around Europe. In Spain, Germany and Austria I'm seeing a lot more homeless and beggars since the migrant crisis of the last few years. Germany allowed 1 million to settle so it's not a surprise really. They do seem to prefer to be homeless in Europe rather than be in their home countries from the couple that I've spoken to.
Carpetsmoker 8y ago
I think it's far more involved than just "dealing with the homeless". After I moved to the UK a few years ago (from NL) was shocked by the amount of homeless people. After renting for two years I was evicted with a 2-month notice for what was essentially a simple disagreement with the landlord. They didn't even attempt to resolve it: they just evicted me. It took me over half a year to get half of my £1 100 deposit back; they initially tried to charge me £1 400, mostly for bullshit general maintenance and/or lying about either the initial state – even though it was unambiguously stated in the original inventory – or agreements we had made about the checkout condition (I asked if I had to fix a few minor issues, they said no, and then charged me anyway). About £100 was reasonable, the rest wasn't. My point here is, all of this would be highly illegal in the Netherlands. You can't just evict people because you feel like it, and you can't just send a bill well over a month later for all sorts of items (or maybe you can, but it's certainly not common[1]). It's not hard to imagine how I could have ended up homeless if I had been more vulnerable – for example by actually needing that £1 100 deposit for a new deposit, or suffering from depression or other mental illness, etc. I think homelessness is a complex problem, and dealing with people after they become homeless is a only a part of it. This is not very scientific, but in general, I've observed that homelessness is correlated with the amount of empathy in a society, which is something that affects many laws and attitudes. [1]: A little footnote: technically also not legal in the UK, but they interpret "notify about deductions within 10 days" as "send standard form letter that there may be some deductions within 10 days", which is obviously not the same. But ... what can you do about stuff like this as a tenant, right? I might have considered the small claims court, but have since left the UK as I was fed up. Even "notify within 10 days" is already very strange, as this means they have all the time to collect all the evidence, while robbing me the chance of actually giving any sort of counter-argument. In NL, it's always been arranged at the checkout, with both parties present.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  I haven't rented in ages, but every time I have, we had a walk-through with the landlord upon leaving the property. As you say, that's the only way to ensure both parties have a fair chance at keeping/regaining whatever part of the deposit they are due. That said, I also never rented in a major city. Mostly during college in a small city, and while most students were a bit clueless, their mostly middle-class parents were not. Then a few homes after college, but again, in a wealthy suburb where tenants typically had the means to enforce their rights via the courts.
rocqua 8y ago
It exists, but there is not a lot of it, and it is not visible. I've often been asked for money for the homeless shelter, as far as I can tell, the municipal shelter really does cost money, though not a lot. Also, if I take a detour going home from work I come across a shanty town I'm pretty sure is illegal but tolerated. A lot of this comes down to the municipalities though, which recently clashed with national politics on the subject of shelter for rejected immigrants. Some municipalities (including mine) wanted to provide bed bath and bread to these people. On a national level, the policy was to force these people to leave the country, as they were here illegally. I imagine some of the more christian rural municipalities have a much harsher approach towards homeless people. It's probably effective as well, insofar as it pushes the homeless people out. There has been a bit of an issue with what the police calls 'confused people'. These are the people with psychiatric issues that are a burden to people around them, but not enough to warrant forced institutionalization. Instead, every time something boils over, the police have to be called. It is very hard to get some of these people evicted, even when they routinely tear up their house and bother neighbors to the point of police involvement. This is not a homeless issue though. Just one of psychiatric care.
gridlockd 8y ago
Stastistically, there are twice as many homeless than in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... Perhaps they are well-hidden?
rayiner 8y ago
Rates of homelessness in the Netherlands are overall the same as in the US.