5 ms·

Tribal instincts are super strong, that's been proven over and over again [citation needed]. I'm afraid long-term empathy for the sake of Other can't work. It o

by b0rsuk 8y ago

Tribal instincts are super strong, that's been proven over and over again [citation needed]. I'm afraid long-term empathy for the sake of Other can't work. It only seems to work when people still remember major disasters and wars. It's inevitable these fade away, isn't it? (except for very, very long term, when evolution and/or genetic engineering might change this) In my country anti-Muslim sentiment is strong, made stronger by the government and its alliance with the church. When I see people get carried away, I often recommend them to learn more about Muslims to "know your enemy better". It's a trick and I think we need further studies to see if it's more likely to backfire (people hit another group they perceive as enemy much harder because they now know their weaknesses) or work towards peace and cooperation. (I'm not a fan of any religion myself, as for Islam my main beef is it doesn't distinguish between the religion and the secular state. It can therefore be called a form of totalitarianism)

speedplane 8y ago
> Tribal instincts are super strong, that's been proven over and over again Tribal instincts aren't as strong as you think. Every civil and egalitarian right that people have gained since the enlightenment are the result of overcoming tribal instincts. The definition of a "tribe" is more often than not mostly a social construct. If society can set it up, it can tear it down.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  Tribal politics affect every social interaction. Family tribe, social tribe, political tribe, all of these subconscious imprints play a role in how we interact (or don't interact) with other people. I would argue that they are not only human nature, but they are emergent from a set of baser tendencies necessary for self preservation in a reality which is resource and time scarce reality. Tribal instincts will exist so long as individual compete. That goes for social status too.
  - speedplane 8y ago
    > Tribal politics affect every social interaction. You're broadening your definition of tribal instincts to encompass all of society. Sure, people make teams based on shared social values, but those aren't really tribes in the traditional sense, i.e., you look like me and/or reside near me, therefore I will team up with you. Under your broader definition, a "tribe" can be anything. It could even emerge based on shared social values of egalitarianism, which directly contradict the more traditional notion of a tribe.
    - Reelin 8y ago
      I think you are confusing tribal instincts (ie thought patterns and emotional drives) with tribal entities (ie the emergence and labeling of tribes themselves). A given instinct (ie predisposed thought pattern or behavioral tendency) potentially applies to everything we do. In particular, our tribal instincts don't suddenly stop affecting us just because we're interacting with something that doesn't resemble a traditional tribe.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        > A given instinct (ie predisposed thought pattern or behavioral tendency) potentially applies to everything we do Behavioral tendencies can change remarkably quickly (i.e., a single generation), rendering the entire idea of "tribes" as you posit them obsolete. It's much more effective to measure and understand those behavioral tendencies directly, and the motivations behind them, than to create arbitrary "tribes" that try to encapsulate those buckets.
        Reelin 8y ago
        > It's much more effective to measure and understand those behavioral tendencies directly, and the motivations behind them I never suggested otherwise? The term "tribal instincts" was meant to refer to precisely that. > Behavioral tendencies can change remarkably quickly (i.e., a single generation) I think you have some fairly fundamental misconceptions about how deeply tribal instincts are rooted - not just in humanity, but primates and a great many other animals. They appear to be tied to evolution in a fairly direct manner. Fractals by Peter Watts is fictional but highly illustrative (https://rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Fractals.pdf https://rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Fractals.pdf).
- nostrademons 8y ago
  The definition of tribes is a social construct. The existence of tribes is not. Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. The dogmatism of the Church gets replaced by the patriotism of the State. Racism gets replaced by classism. Discrimination on appearance gets replaced by discrimination on education. Sometimes just this redefinition of groups is progress: I'd argue that group boundaries based upon choices or values are more useful than group boundaries based on origins or genetics. But the utopian vision of "and the world will be as one" is naive, and ignores basically all recorded history.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    >Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. I completely agree with this. It seems as though that many(all?) people have some group that's the Other and it's acceptable to attack them in various ways. For example, it used to be socially acceptable to attack nerds, but it isn't anymore, however, people have simply picked new groups that are acceptable targets that are more specific, such as anti-PC people. What seems to have improved though, is that we seem to condone extreme measures less and less. Nerds used to be physically bullied, but that seems to be less acceptable nowadays. While I think that the ideas of inclusiveness aren't going to work, because there's always going to be some Other that's acceptable to be demonized (eg incels right now) by the in-group, I hope that the demonization becomes less and less extreme over time.
    - b0rsuk 8y ago
      Around here there are tons of image memes about vegans and anti-vaxers. On websites that are mostly associated with the more liberal side. Apparently not. I guess it's just a desire to unite by having a common enemy or at least a target for ridicule.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    > Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. Yup: Also known as, "I can tolerate anyone except my outgroup" - https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
- tcbawo 8y ago
  In America, I imagine this is why people promote Nationalism -- to build a sense of the American Tribe. This seemed to work especially well while we had the Soviet bogeyman. Today, attempts to describe others as 'not real Americans' is fracturing tribal unity.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    A lot of our modern focus on race also dates back to such well-meaning attempts, ironically enough. There was a very real focus in the Progressive era to try and get people to see themselves as "white", in preference to their more meaningful ethnic origin - this is something that impacted people from Germany and other parts of central Europe quite a bit, because of how wide-spread anti-German sentiment and discrimination was in the run-up to WWI. Of course racial self-identification is considered especially divisive today, but it used to not always be viewed as such.
caprese 8y ago
> as for Islam my main beef is it doesn't distinguish between the religion and the secular state A lot of muslims don't consider or care about the governance model I think your 'trick' is still masking a lack of very basic understanding about the vast population of people that aren't doing anything radical
- b0rsuk 8y ago
  And I think it's hard to blame me for this because where I live there are very few Muslims. Muslims, homosexuals etc are always something you read about, not people you can distinguish on a street. They're afraid to identify openly, so you can't go and talk with them.
  - caprese 8y ago
    Hm... so I gather that you consider yourself the tolerant person in your society. Assuming that you are willing to imagine living in a more collaborative society all you need to understand is that people are just people. They have the same wants and desires. Connection, purpose, security, a general understanding that self-preservation requires respecting other people's goal of self-preservation. It is that simple.
TimTheTinker 8y ago
> Tribal instincts are super strong > I'm not a fan of any religion myself, as for Islam my main beef is it doesn't distinguish between the religion and the secular state. It can therefore be called a form of totalitarianism. I think one major shortfall of modern discourse is that we've largely lost the ability to debate ideas (including religious claims) without incorporating tribalism and a "those people are bad" mentality. It's entirely possible to have empathy for people who believe something else and yet strongly disagree with their beliefs (and politely tell them so).
- mcguire 8y ago
  "Lost"?

by b0rsuk 8y ago

speedplane 8y ago

> Tribal instincts are super strong, that's been proven over and over again Tribal instincts aren't as strong as you think. Every civil and egalitarian right that people have gained since the enlightenment are the result of overcoming tribal instincts. The definition of a "tribe" is more often than not mostly a social construct. If society can set it up, it can tear it down.

fromthestart 8y ago
Tribal politics affect every social interaction. Family tribe, social tribe, political tribe, all of these subconscious imprints play a role in how we interact (or don't interact) with other people. I would argue that they are not only human nature, but they are emergent from a set of baser tendencies necessary for self preservation in a reality which is resource and time scarce reality. Tribal instincts will exist so long as individual compete. That goes for social status too.
- speedplane 8y ago
  > Tribal politics affect every social interaction. You're broadening your definition of tribal instincts to encompass all of society. Sure, people make teams based on shared social values, but those aren't really tribes in the traditional sense, i.e., you look like me and/or reside near me, therefore I will team up with you. Under your broader definition, a "tribe" can be anything. It could even emerge based on shared social values of egalitarianism, which directly contradict the more traditional notion of a tribe.
  - Reelin 8y ago
    I think you are confusing tribal instincts (ie thought patterns and emotional drives) with tribal entities (ie the emergence and labeling of tribes themselves). A given instinct (ie predisposed thought pattern or behavioral tendency) potentially applies to everything we do. In particular, our tribal instincts don't suddenly stop affecting us just because we're interacting with something that doesn't resemble a traditional tribe.
    - speedplane 8y ago
      > A given instinct (ie predisposed thought pattern or behavioral tendency) potentially applies to everything we do Behavioral tendencies can change remarkably quickly (i.e., a single generation), rendering the entire idea of "tribes" as you posit them obsolete. It's much more effective to measure and understand those behavioral tendencies directly, and the motivations behind them, than to create arbitrary "tribes" that try to encapsulate those buckets.
      - Reelin 8y ago
        > It's much more effective to measure and understand those behavioral tendencies directly, and the motivations behind them I never suggested otherwise? The term "tribal instincts" was meant to refer to precisely that. > Behavioral tendencies can change remarkably quickly (i.e., a single generation) I think you have some fairly fundamental misconceptions about how deeply tribal instincts are rooted - not just in humanity, but primates and a great many other animals. They appear to be tied to evolution in a fairly direct manner. Fractals by Peter Watts is fictional but highly illustrative (https://rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Fractals.pdf https://rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Fractals.pdf).
nostrademons 8y ago
The definition of tribes is a social construct. The existence of tribes is not. Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. The dogmatism of the Church gets replaced by the patriotism of the State. Racism gets replaced by classism. Discrimination on appearance gets replaced by discrimination on education. Sometimes just this redefinition of groups is progress: I'd argue that group boundaries based upon choices or values are more useful than group boundaries based on origins or genetics. But the utopian vision of "and the world will be as one" is naive, and ignores basically all recorded history.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. I completely agree with this. It seems as though that many(all?) people have some group that's the Other and it's acceptable to attack them in various ways. For example, it used to be socially acceptable to attack nerds, but it isn't anymore, however, people have simply picked new groups that are acceptable targets that are more specific, such as anti-PC people. What seems to have improved though, is that we seem to condone extreme measures less and less. Nerds used to be physically bullied, but that seems to be less acceptable nowadays. While I think that the ideas of inclusiveness aren't going to work, because there's always going to be some Other that's acceptable to be demonized (eg incels right now) by the in-group, I hope that the demonization becomes less and less extreme over time.
  - b0rsuk 8y ago
    Around here there are tons of image memes about vegans and anti-vaxers. On websites that are mostly associated with the more liberal side. Apparently not. I guess it's just a desire to unite by having a common enemy or at least a target for ridicule.
- 0815test 8y ago
  > Reformers who seek to abolish tribalism usually find that they've simply redrawn the boundary lines and replaced one set of tribes with another. Yup: Also known as, "I can tolerate anyone except my outgroup" - https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
tcbawo 8y ago
In America, I imagine this is why people promote Nationalism -- to build a sense of the American Tribe. This seemed to work especially well while we had the Soviet bogeyman. Today, attempts to describe others as 'not real Americans' is fracturing tribal unity.
- 0815test 8y ago
  A lot of our modern focus on race also dates back to such well-meaning attempts, ironically enough. There was a very real focus in the Progressive era to try and get people to see themselves as "white", in preference to their more meaningful ethnic origin - this is something that impacted people from Germany and other parts of central Europe quite a bit, because of how wide-spread anti-German sentiment and discrimination was in the run-up to WWI. Of course racial self-identification is considered especially divisive today, but it used to not always be viewed as such.

caprese 8y ago

> as for Islam my main beef is it doesn't distinguish between the religion and the secular state A lot of muslims don't consider or care about the governance model I think your 'trick' is still masking a lack of very basic understanding about the vast population of people that aren't doing anything radical

b0rsuk 8y ago
And I think it's hard to blame me for this because where I live there are very few Muslims. Muslims, homosexuals etc are always something you read about, not people you can distinguish on a street. They're afraid to identify openly, so you can't go and talk with them.
- caprese 8y ago
  Hm... so I gather that you consider yourself the tolerant person in your society. Assuming that you are willing to imagine living in a more collaborative society all you need to understand is that people are just people. They have the same wants and desires. Connection, purpose, security, a general understanding that self-preservation requires respecting other people's goal of self-preservation. It is that simple.

TimTheTinker 8y ago

> Tribal instincts are super strong > I'm not a fan of any religion myself, as for Islam my main beef is it doesn't distinguish between the religion and the secular state. It can therefore be called a form of totalitarianism. I think one major shortfall of modern discourse is that we've largely lost the ability to debate ideas (including religious claims) without incorporating tribalism and a "those people are bad" mentality. It's entirely possible to have empathy for people who believe something else and yet strongly disagree with their beliefs (and politely tell them so).

mcguire 8y ago
"Lost"?