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I think the West could if it wanted to do so, but the West (a collection of States and companies) is not a centrally controlled entity like China (one state, wh

I think the West could if it wanted to do so, but the West (a collection of States and companies) is not a centrally controlled entity like China (one state, which has more or less absolute control on how organizations within the state operate). Western companies do not care about losing IP. They say they care but they don't really. It is just a cost of doing business. They know they are losing IP, but they are going for short term profit (either from the Chinese market or from cheaper manufacturing in China). When the chickens come home to roost the CEO will have been paid big bonuses and ready to move on. If the CEO did not save costs or expand into China, shareholders would have revolted and replaced the CEO anyway. The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft.

sacheendra 7y ago
How is cheap labour where people commit suicide ethical in any way? One of the reasons Chinese companies can manufacture so cheaply is the possibility of IP theft. The west want to pay their poor less to manufacture things cheaply. The Chinese want to pay the western rich less to use their technology. Calling IP theft unethical in a sentence with cheap labour is oxymoronic.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Wasn't Foxconn's suicide rate in line with the nation's averages?
  - pcr0 7y ago
    It was less than the national average, 14/million vs 22/million [0]. Nonetheless, they did have a problem with illegal overtime, abusive management, a lack of breaks and discrimination [1]. A lot has changed since then due to pressure from both Apple and the Chinese government. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-chinese-suicides-and-the-amazing-economics-of-ha-joon-chang/#2a9e7ef236a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-c... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports
  - tooltalk 7y ago
    not for that age group. The average age for Foxconn workers I believe was 22 or 23, which is usually the lowest.
- steve19 7y ago
  Cheap labor is relative. The Indian minimum wage does not need to be the same as the Australian at this point in time. Outsourcing leads to employment overseas and its not in anyway unethical.
- fiblye 7y ago
  Suicide rates in the US outpace China by nearly double. The Netherlands are about 25% higher than Chinese rates. So isn't it unethical to work in the west? Shouldn't we be shipping jobs and tech off to China faster, since they have lower suicide rates?
  - wolco 7y ago
    How does Japan do? Those might be the group who lost their job to China.
- ajiang 7y ago
  China is no longer a cheap labor country. A significant amount of manufacturing is moving to India, Vietnam, and other SEA countries, with some assembly moving to Africa.
wrong_variable 7y ago
> The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. China depends a lot less on trade than NATO countries, something like 3% of their GDP is making stuff for Western consumers. If there is a serious Trade War their main concern would be their own real estate market instead of selling plastic toys to US consumers. China's secondary trading block are near Asian countries. The "west" collectively have a population LESS than China, and they cannot even hold the "EU" together. China also has major cards, in a situation that you describe above does happen. - The first thing China will do is sell their treasury holdings, creating enough shockwaves in the bond market to wipe of the retirement saving of most boomers, (remember that the median US national has no saving). - They will unilaterally stop following any sanction / not officially , but unofficially they will sell whatever Iran / NK / Russia want to buy from them. Iran alone has enough oil reserves to meet their energy needs, not to bring up the cozy relationship between Putin and Xi. - 1970 style inflation in western countries that have outsourced all their electrial engineering work to China, the west doesn't have a collection of mega city that is the Pearl River Delta - China's greatest asset. There is no way greater New York will be able compete directly with PRD. It will require infrastracture spending at a level that would be unprecedented in US history comparable to WW2 - putting inflation pressure on resources. Not to mention major displacement of workers - who might not want to go back to working in a factory floor. All this will be painful to both the "West" and China. > What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft. Try starting a tea shop in India and then come back to me - I know I tried. You will have to pay bribe to 3 government bureaucrats, 5 state bureaucrats, 2 local mafias leader, leaving aside politians who will come at our door if your business gets big enough. India / Indonesia are democracies with all the mess that democracy involves. Most MNCs rather put their money in Saudi Arabia then invest in unstable democracies. India / Indonesia will industrialize on their own terms and will mostly stay neutral since they dislike being pawns between great powers.
- throwawaybeijjj 7y ago

sacheendra 7y ago

How is cheap labour where people commit suicide ethical in any way? One of the reasons Chinese companies can manufacture so cheaply is the possibility of IP theft. The west want to pay their poor less to manufacture things cheaply. The Chinese want to pay the western rich less to use their technology. Calling IP theft unethical in a sentence with cheap labour is oxymoronic.

chillacy 7y ago
Wasn't Foxconn's suicide rate in line with the nation's averages?
- pcr0 7y ago
  It was less than the national average, 14/million vs 22/million [0]. Nonetheless, they did have a problem with illegal overtime, abusive management, a lack of breaks and discrimination [1]. A lot has changed since then due to pressure from both Apple and the Chinese government. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-chinese-suicides-and-the-amazing-economics-of-ha-joon-chang/#2a9e7ef236a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-c... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports
- tooltalk 7y ago
  not for that age group. The average age for Foxconn workers I believe was 22 or 23, which is usually the lowest.
steve19 7y ago
Cheap labor is relative. The Indian minimum wage does not need to be the same as the Australian at this point in time. Outsourcing leads to employment overseas and its not in anyway unethical.
fiblye 7y ago
Suicide rates in the US outpace China by nearly double. The Netherlands are about 25% higher than Chinese rates. So isn't it unethical to work in the west? Shouldn't we be shipping jobs and tech off to China faster, since they have lower suicide rates?
- wolco 7y ago
  How does Japan do? Those might be the group who lost their job to China.
ajiang 7y ago
China is no longer a cheap labor country. A significant amount of manufacturing is moving to India, Vietnam, and other SEA countries, with some assembly moving to Africa.

wrong_variable 7y ago

> The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. China depends a lot less on trade than NATO countries, something like 3% of their GDP is making stuff for Western consumers. If there is a serious Trade War their main concern would be their own real estate market instead of selling plastic toys to US consumers. China's secondary trading block are near Asian countries. The "west" collectively have a population LESS than China, and they cannot even hold the "EU" together. China also has major cards, in a situation that you describe above does happen. - The first thing China will do is sell their treasury holdings, creating enough shockwaves in the bond market to wipe of the retirement saving of most boomers, (remember that the median US national has no saving). - They will unilaterally stop following any sanction / not officially , but unofficially they will sell whatever Iran / NK / Russia want to buy from them. Iran alone has enough oil reserves to meet their energy needs, not to bring up the cozy relationship between Putin and Xi. - 1970 style inflation in western countries that have outsourced all their electrial engineering work to China, the west doesn't have a collection of mega city that is the Pearl River Delta - China's greatest asset. There is no way greater New York will be able compete directly with PRD. It will require infrastracture spending at a level that would be unprecedented in US history comparable to WW2 - putting inflation pressure on resources. Not to mention major displacement of workers - who might not want to go back to working in a factory floor. All this will be painful to both the "West" and China. > What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft. Try starting a tea shop in India and then come back to me - I know I tried. You will have to pay bribe to 3 government bureaucrats, 5 state bureaucrats, 2 local mafias leader, leaving aside politians who will come at our door if your business gets big enough. India / Indonesia are democracies with all the mess that democracy involves. Most MNCs rather put their money in Saudi Arabia then invest in unstable democracies. India / Indonesia will industrialize on their own terms and will mostly stay neutral since they dislike being pawns between great powers.

throwawaybeijjj 7y ago