4 ms·

Also, perhaps even more importantly, you'd be starting from scratch in terms of app ecosystem, which is even more important today (and especially on mobile) tha

by _bxg1 8y ago

Also, perhaps even more importantly, you'd be starting from scratch in terms of app ecosystem, which is even more important today (and especially on mobile) than it used to be in the PC era. You could get some mileage out of the web- but first you'd have to build or port a browser. Chromium certainly won't target your open OS, and with its 75% market share, it now strongarms the direction that web standards take. And many app makers don't even have mobile web apps these days (or their web apps are crippled versions of their "real apps"). Good luck getting Slack and Favor, or your bank, to build apps for your new OS. Or even Dropbox and Evernote. Forget about Netflix and YouTube. Maybe you're okay with going back to the iPhone 1.0 days where a smartphone was just for phone calls, texting, email, a calendar, listening to music, looking up directions, and searching the web. But while you might get an mp3 player app, many people no longer own copies of their music and you won't get Pandora or Spotify. You certainly won't have a decent maps app - maps are one of the most heavily monopolized core features of today's phones, mainly because of the sheer size of the task of mapping the world. OpenStreetMap exists, but it's honestly not very good. You start to see the problem. I used an Android fork for about a year without any Google services before I gave up. I was able to grab a few crucial apps from APKMirror, but not many. I tried using OsmAnd for maps; it was awful. I once bought a pair of headphones I literally couldn't use without the app - available only on the App Store and Play Store. I used web apps to fill in some of the gaps; they were spotty and many were ugly and/or slow and/or didn't hook into APIs like push notifications. At least I had a fully up-to-date Chrome fork to use as my browser. Maybe after the death of Android there would be greater momentum behind building and sustaining this kind of ecosystem. That would help bolster not only app development, but possibly even the value of the open web, and maybe even the contributions to (and therefore quality of) things like OpenStreetMap. It's hard to say.

_bxg1 8y ago
For those curious, what I ended up doing was switching to an iPhone. I decided that my boycott of Google was mainly about privacy, not openness, and I resigned to the fact that I'd rather be able to fully function within our digital society than have openness in my phone (I still use Linux on my desktop). I've been happy with my decision; but for what it's worth I'd still try out a mature, truly open mobile OS if one ever surfaced.
0815test 8y ago
> Also, perhaps even more importantly, you'd be starting from scratch in terms of app ecosystem The "app ecosystem" on a free mobile OS would be shared with the "ecosystem" of free PC apps. Chromium does target, e.g. Debian GNU/Linux, as do quite a few proprietary apps relying on Flatpack. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to piggiback on this work for the mobile platform. Yes, UI is different, but not that different. Modern Linux apps already come with a touch-friendly UI, for example.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Assuming the free mobile OS was Linux-based. And if it's going to be, I don't see why one wouldn't just start with an Android OSP fork. Even if Google stopped maintaining the latter, it's a huge head start compared to the alternative. That said, because of the way Google APIs have extended their tentacles into non-Google Android apps, many of them cease to function without Google Services installed. So you'd still have most of the app ecosystem problem.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    AOSP is way too fragmented. An "app" dating back to, e.g. Android 2.3 (not that long ago), or even as late as Android 4.0 will not even build in a form suitable for a present-day version of AOSP - you have to go and rewrite the code yourself, there is no backward compatibility that reaches that far. Linux platforms are truly mature and can easily run code dating back to the 1980s. Add to that the pointless overhead caused by Dalvik/ART (especially wrt. RAM use - quite critical on a system with no swap space whatsoever!), and the gratuitous differences with widespread Linux kernel and userspace standards. Starting from scratch on a better base is short-term pain for long-term gain.
    - zrm 8y ago
      Though you can just do both. Support both Android apps as well as New Better Thing and then all new apps use the new thing but the existing apps let you hit the ground running.
dingaling 8y ago
So your complaints are that you couldn't use your preferred commercial services on an open platform. But if you zoom out to Smartphone Global Scale, the vast majority of people don't use those services anyhow. Netflix has 155 million total subscribers globally, which means it doesn't have about 3,745 million other Internet users. Smartphones are far, far more about communication and collaboration than passive content consumption. 'Functioning' in our digital society isn't about everyone individually watching the same movies on a 5" screen on the bus. Most people use their phones as a glossier smartphone with navigation capability and that's just fine.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  "the vast majority of people don't use those services anyhow." You use Netflix as a stand-in for all "commercial services". The majority of smartphone users in the world may not have Netflix on their phones, but the majority of Americans - the largest market by value - do. And more importantly, I guarantee you that the vast majority of smartphone users worldwide regularly use Facebook and/or WhatsApp. Those are commercial services. I personally have trouble staying in the loop at work without Slack on my phone. That's a commercial service. Plenty of mobile, commercial services are truly essential to modern life. Singling out Netflix is a straw-man.
  - feanaro 8y ago
    > The majority of smartphone users in the world may not have Netflix on their phones, but the majority of Americans - the largest market by value - do. Maybe Americans are the largest market by value. Are they larger than the sum of all other markets, though? Will they be in 5 years? What about 10? Regarding WhatsApp and Facebook, let's just remind ourselves they did not exist ~10 years ago. Any argument based on their size should only serve to remind us that such a dramatic change is possible over a period of 10 years.

by _bxg1 8y ago

_bxg1 8y ago

For those curious, what I ended up doing was switching to an iPhone. I decided that my boycott of Google was mainly about privacy, not openness, and I resigned to the fact that I'd rather be able to fully function within our digital society than have openness in my phone (I still use Linux on my desktop). I've been happy with my decision; but for what it's worth I'd still try out a mature, truly open mobile OS if one ever surfaced.

0815test 8y ago

> Also, perhaps even more importantly, you'd be starting from scratch in terms of app ecosystem The "app ecosystem" on a free mobile OS would be shared with the "ecosystem" of free PC apps. Chromium does target, e.g. Debian GNU/Linux, as do quite a few proprietary apps relying on Flatpack. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to piggiback on this work for the mobile platform. Yes, UI is different, but not that different. Modern Linux apps already come with a touch-friendly UI, for example.

_bxg1 8y ago
Assuming the free mobile OS was Linux-based. And if it's going to be, I don't see why one wouldn't just start with an Android OSP fork. Even if Google stopped maintaining the latter, it's a huge head start compared to the alternative. That said, because of the way Google APIs have extended their tentacles into non-Google Android apps, many of them cease to function without Google Services installed. So you'd still have most of the app ecosystem problem.
- 0815test 8y ago
  AOSP is way too fragmented. An "app" dating back to, e.g. Android 2.3 (not that long ago), or even as late as Android 4.0 will not even build in a form suitable for a present-day version of AOSP - you have to go and rewrite the code yourself, there is no backward compatibility that reaches that far. Linux platforms are truly mature and can easily run code dating back to the 1980s. Add to that the pointless overhead caused by Dalvik/ART (especially wrt. RAM use - quite critical on a system with no swap space whatsoever!), and the gratuitous differences with widespread Linux kernel and userspace standards. Starting from scratch on a better base is short-term pain for long-term gain.
  - zrm 8y ago
    Though you can just do both. Support both Android apps as well as New Better Thing and then all new apps use the new thing but the existing apps let you hit the ground running.

dingaling 8y ago

So your complaints are that you couldn't use your preferred commercial services on an open platform. But if you zoom out to Smartphone Global Scale, the vast majority of people don't use those services anyhow. Netflix has 155 million total subscribers globally, which means it doesn't have about 3,745 million other Internet users. Smartphones are far, far more about communication and collaboration than passive content consumption. 'Functioning' in our digital society isn't about everyone individually watching the same movies on a 5" screen on the bus. Most people use their phones as a glossier smartphone with navigation capability and that's just fine.

_bxg1 8y ago
"the vast majority of people don't use those services anyhow." You use Netflix as a stand-in for all "commercial services". The majority of smartphone users in the world may not have Netflix on their phones, but the majority of Americans - the largest market by value - do. And more importantly, I guarantee you that the vast majority of smartphone users worldwide regularly use Facebook and/or WhatsApp. Those are commercial services. I personally have trouble staying in the loop at work without Slack on my phone. That's a commercial service. Plenty of mobile, commercial services are truly essential to modern life. Singling out Netflix is a straw-man.
- feanaro 8y ago
  > The majority of smartphone users in the world may not have Netflix on their phones, but the majority of Americans - the largest market by value - do. Maybe Americans are the largest market by value. Are they larger than the sum of all other markets, though? Will they be in 5 years? What about 10? Regarding WhatsApp and Facebook, let's just remind ourselves they did not exist ~10 years ago. Any argument based on their size should only serve to remind us that such a dramatic change is possible over a period of 10 years.