5 ms·

While this Thai case doesn’t seem to be a micronation, but rather simply a house, I agree with your point about micronations. Nationhood, but really we’re talk

While this Thai case doesn’t seem to be a micronation, but rather simply a house, I agree with your point about micronations. Nationhood, but really we’re talking about sovereignty, isn’t something you can just declare. It’s something that’s granted by others. Sometimes it’s through agreement. Other times it’s by fear of force. That’s why I was always skeptical of things such as the Seasteading Institute that wanted to declare a cruise ship a country, and then have the “populace” commute to San Francisco. That plan works, right up until a US Coast Guard cutter pulls up and sends over a boarding party. The sea floor is littered with this folly. Republic of Rose Island. Seized the the Italian Finance Police, and sank by the Italian Navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Rose_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Rose_Island The Republic of Minerva. A reef island 250 miles from Tonga. Evicted and claimed by the Tongan Navy. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/republic-of-minerva https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/republic-of-minerva Sealand. Raided by pirates, but honestly ignored by the U.K. Putting aside the varying seriousness and motivations of micronation would-be-founders, it’s hard to judge the history of such endeavors[0] as being anything other than failure. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations

return0 8y ago
> It’s something that’s granted by others. Sometimes it’s through agreement. Other times it’s by fear of force. Thailand has signed the UN law of the sea and set its territorial claim at 12 miles, so it knows that its territory ends at 12 miles. They are disrespecting their contract by performing hostile operations in international waters. If anything, the other signatories to UNCLOS should complain. > The Contiguous Zone is an intermediary zone between the territorial sea and the high seas extending enforcement jurisdiction of the coastal state to a maximum of 24 nautical miles from baselines for the purposes of preventing or punishing violations of customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary (and thus residual national security) legislation. https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Law-of-the-Sea-Mechanisms-Examining-UNCLOS-Maritime-Zones-2014-12-01 https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Law-of-the-Sea-Me... @yongjik: china (the country) has no legal basis to extend its sovereignity there. But i guess it can send a ship and station it there , and the us could not lawfully capture it unless certain conditions were met. The US is not a signatory to UNCLOS so this is hypothetical. I am also sure the US and russia are frequent visitors of each other from international waters near Alaska.
- yongjik 8y ago
  This interpretation of international laws doesn't pass sniff test, and frankly on the same level as sovereign citizen movement. If China builds a floating house 14 miles from San Francisco and declares it as Chinese territory, do you think the US will respect that?
  - trickstra 8y ago
    If US claimed only 12 miles off the coast, then under what interpretation of any law would they just come and take it and charge the occupants with treason? And we are not talking about declaring any Chinese territory, don't put up a strawman.
- jonathankoren 8y ago
  I really think you should read up on the history of the Republic of Minerva. Essentially, Tonga got the other South Pacific countries together, told them what they’re going to do, and then did it. You can do this when you’re a recognized sovereign country. No one cares about outlaws.
stale2002 8y ago
> that plan works, right up until a US Coast Guard cutter pulls up and sends over a boarding party. Why would they do that? Its not illegal to run a cruise ship. Its also not illegal to pretend that you are a nation. Its even not illegal to live on a boat, out in the ocean! Are you aware that ships travel into and out of the US all of the time, and none of them have to worry about the coast guard invading them?
- sireat 8y ago
  Why wouldn't they do it? Coast Guard (of various nations) board ships all the time for various reasons. As soon as these seasteaders are deemed a threat/annoyance to the state they are goners. Maybe they did not pay tax on their crypto earnings, maybe they have an anti-state blog, maybe they produce copious amounts of LSD, etc etc. At the end of the day, the man/state with the biggest boomstick wins.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Why wouldn't they do that? Well they dont do that right now. There are lots of ships in the ocean, right at this moment, and the US coast guard isn't going around sinking any of them. Sure, if they enter their waters, and try to break their countries laws, then it might happen. But this is instead about international waters. People travel around the world, on boats, all of the time. I could get on a boat, right now, and travel into the ocean, and I'm not going to have to worry about the coast guard sinking me.
    - arwineap 8y ago
      Pleasure craft get boarded all the time by the coast guard. [0][1][2][3][4] Often on trips from the west coast to hawaii, often on trips sailing north from southern california. The coast guard, can at any time board / search your vessel without any probable cause or warrants. Even in international waters. It's on you to make sure you're not doing anything illegal that would warrant a seizure of your vessel and all the property on it. ( again, even in international waters ) You're right though, they likely won't sink it. [0] https://www.uscg.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=luZU9g1tNsc%3D&portalid=0 https://www.uscg.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=luZU9g1tNsc%3... [1] https://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-your-fourth-amendment-rights-part-1/ https://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-y... [2]https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime/the-fourth-amendment-rights-vs-boarding-power-of-the-united-states-coast-guard/ https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime/the-fourth-amendment-rig... [3] https://www.getmyboat.com/resources/tips-for-renters/638/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-guard-boarding/ https://www.getmyboat.com/resources/tips-for-renters/638/wha... [4] https://coastguardnews.com/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-guard-boarding/2016/05/26/ https://coastguardnews.com/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-gua...

return0 8y ago

> It’s something that’s granted by others. Sometimes it’s through agreement. Other times it’s by fear of force. Thailand has signed the UN law of the sea and set its territorial claim at 12 miles, so it knows that its territory ends at 12 miles. They are disrespecting their contract by performing hostile operations in international waters. If anything, the other signatories to UNCLOS should complain. > The Contiguous Zone is an intermediary zone between the territorial sea and the high seas extending enforcement jurisdiction of the coastal state to a maximum of 24 nautical miles from baselines for the purposes of preventing or punishing violations of customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary (and thus residual national security) legislation. https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Law-of-the-Sea-Mechanisms-Examining-UNCLOS-Maritime-Zones-2014-12-01 https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Law-of-the-Sea-Me... @yongjik: china (the country) has no legal basis to extend its sovereignity there. But i guess it can send a ship and station it there , and the us could not lawfully capture it unless certain conditions were met. The US is not a signatory to UNCLOS so this is hypothetical. I am also sure the US and russia are frequent visitors of each other from international waters near Alaska.

yongjik 8y ago
This interpretation of international laws doesn't pass sniff test, and frankly on the same level as sovereign citizen movement. If China builds a floating house 14 miles from San Francisco and declares it as Chinese territory, do you think the US will respect that?
- trickstra 8y ago
  If US claimed only 12 miles off the coast, then under what interpretation of any law would they just come and take it and charge the occupants with treason? And we are not talking about declaring any Chinese territory, don't put up a strawman.
jonathankoren 8y ago
I really think you should read up on the history of the Republic of Minerva. Essentially, Tonga got the other South Pacific countries together, told them what they’re going to do, and then did it. You can do this when you’re a recognized sovereign country. No one cares about outlaws.

stale2002 8y ago

> that plan works, right up until a US Coast Guard cutter pulls up and sends over a boarding party. Why would they do that? Its not illegal to run a cruise ship. Its also not illegal to pretend that you are a nation. Its even not illegal to live on a boat, out in the ocean! Are you aware that ships travel into and out of the US all of the time, and none of them have to worry about the coast guard invading them?

sireat 8y ago
Why wouldn't they do it? Coast Guard (of various nations) board ships all the time for various reasons. As soon as these seasteaders are deemed a threat/annoyance to the state they are goners. Maybe they did not pay tax on their crypto earnings, maybe they have an anti-state blog, maybe they produce copious amounts of LSD, etc etc. At the end of the day, the man/state with the biggest boomstick wins.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Why wouldn't they do that? Well they dont do that right now. There are lots of ships in the ocean, right at this moment, and the US coast guard isn't going around sinking any of them. Sure, if they enter their waters, and try to break their countries laws, then it might happen. But this is instead about international waters. People travel around the world, on boats, all of the time. I could get on a boat, right now, and travel into the ocean, and I'm not going to have to worry about the coast guard sinking me.
  - arwineap 8y ago
    Pleasure craft get boarded all the time by the coast guard. [0][1][2][3][4] Often on trips from the west coast to hawaii, often on trips sailing north from southern california. The coast guard, can at any time board / search your vessel without any probable cause or warrants. Even in international waters. It's on you to make sure you're not doing anything illegal that would warrant a seizure of your vessel and all the property on it. ( again, even in international waters ) You're right though, they likely won't sink it. [0] https://www.uscg.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=luZU9g1tNsc%3D&portalid=0 https://www.uscg.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=luZU9g1tNsc%3... [1] https://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-your-fourth-amendment-rights-part-1/ https://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-y... [2]https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime/the-fourth-amendment-rights-vs-boarding-power-of-the-united-states-coast-guard/ https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime/the-fourth-amendment-rig... [3] https://www.getmyboat.com/resources/tips-for-renters/638/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-guard-boarding/ https://www.getmyboat.com/resources/tips-for-renters/638/wha... [4] https://coastguardnews.com/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-guard-boarding/2016/05/26/ https://coastguardnews.com/what-to-expect-during-a-coast-gua...