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This was something that boggled my mind when reading about the history of Sealand, and specifically how they tried to set up an extraterritorial "data haven" on

This was something that boggled my mind when reading about the history of Sealand, and specifically how they tried to set up an extraterritorial "data haven" on it. Like, OK, some random Joe decides his floating rock is an independent nation, that's all fine and good. But apparently they actually believed that countries took their independence claims seriously, as opposed to it just not being worth the Royal Navy's time and money to do anything about some yahoo on an abandoned artillery platform. And so they tried to set up illegal businesses on it! Did none of them think that this would only last as long as it took for somebody at a government to actually pay attention? The same goes for all these libertarian dreams about seasteading nations with no regulations. Guys, that's only going to last as long as nobody actually cares about what you're doing. The moment you begin actually pissing off countries with navies, the aircraft carriers are going to come and all your legalisms about international waters aren't going to count for squat. Because at the end of the day, in both domestic and international law, might makes right. "Seastanders" are a bunch of LARPers who have somehow forgotten that none of this is real.

ghaff 8y ago
And in the case of Sealand specifically, at least at the time, the U.K. didn’t even need to send in the military to end the data haven. A backhoe through their comms link would almost certainly have sufficed.
- mc32 8y ago
  They could bypass that via Microwave, no? Altho, yes, they could just topple their antenna on land too.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Right. There’s still at the mercy of a land-based link. Perhaps today satellite would still be practical. Logistics like food and fuel could also be challenging if the U.K. tried to cut that off.
stale2002 8y ago
There are ships that travel out in international waters all of the time, and most of them don't get executed by any rando nation that feels like it. A seastreaded home is no different. It is rare for a nation to just go around bombing random boats in the water. It just doesn't happen very often.
opportune 8y ago
I think you're right that if you start openly doing illegal things like offering "data havens" your movement has a time limit. And in this case, the couple made a mistake of building in an area where a country could still theoretically claim sovereignty. But, if you're far enough out and not actively doing anything illegal (gambling is probably ok!) like allowing hosting illegal content or trafficking drugs, I really don't think anybody would care. I do think seasteading is a bit larpish but I think it's something you could do legitimately as long as you understand your boundaries. Like, if you set up some kind of fishing/aquaculture/gambling operation in the mid-Atlantic, I don't think anybody would stop you
- isostatic 8y ago
  Illegal to who?
  - opportune 8y ago
    Any country which could reasonably claim jurisdiction, or any country that you would directly affect, probably.
    - trickstra 8y ago
      which is exactly who in international waters?
nabla9 8y ago
If you really build your 'nation' in the blue waters far away from any economic zones, you should worry more about crime. What if some rusty fishing ship from third world country decides to relieve you from all your valuables for extra income.
- closeparen 8y ago
  The same thing that happens to a vessel under US protection. You give them whatever they want and they enjoy it consequence-free. The Navy getting involved in a piracy case is like the SFPD getting involved in a bike theft case.
ghufran_syed 8y ago
Agree, the only way to make it work would be to have a credible deterrent. I suspect some private organisations have, or will soon have the capability to deploy orbital kinetic energy weapons. Much cleaner than nukes, and easier to scale a response up and down as needed.
- opwieurposiu 8y ago
  With crisper and gene editing tech advancing rapidly, bioweapons could soon make a credible deterrent for smaller actors. Any deterrent would need to some kind of dead man switch to release the virus if the nation is nuked or they would be at risk of a decapitation strike.

ghaff 8y ago

And in the case of Sealand specifically, at least at the time, the U.K. didn’t even need to send in the military to end the data haven. A backhoe through their comms link would almost certainly have sufficed.

mc32 8y ago
They could bypass that via Microwave, no? Altho, yes, they could just topple their antenna on land too.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Right. There’s still at the mercy of a land-based link. Perhaps today satellite would still be practical. Logistics like food and fuel could also be challenging if the U.K. tried to cut that off.

stale2002 8y ago

There are ships that travel out in international waters all of the time, and most of them don't get executed by any rando nation that feels like it. A seastreaded home is no different. It is rare for a nation to just go around bombing random boats in the water. It just doesn't happen very often.

opportune 8y ago

I think you're right that if you start openly doing illegal things like offering "data havens" your movement has a time limit. And in this case, the couple made a mistake of building in an area where a country could still theoretically claim sovereignty. But, if you're far enough out and not actively doing anything illegal (gambling is probably ok!) like allowing hosting illegal content or trafficking drugs, I really don't think anybody would care. I do think seasteading is a bit larpish but I think it's something you could do legitimately as long as you understand your boundaries. Like, if you set up some kind of fishing/aquaculture/gambling operation in the mid-Atlantic, I don't think anybody would stop you

isostatic 8y ago
Illegal to who?
- opportune 8y ago
  Any country which could reasonably claim jurisdiction, or any country that you would directly affect, probably.
  - trickstra 8y ago
    which is exactly who in international waters?

nabla9 8y ago

If you really build your 'nation' in the blue waters far away from any economic zones, you should worry more about crime. What if some rusty fishing ship from third world country decides to relieve you from all your valuables for extra income.

closeparen 8y ago
The same thing that happens to a vessel under US protection. You give them whatever they want and they enjoy it consequence-free. The Navy getting involved in a piracy case is like the SFPD getting involved in a bike theft case.

ghufran_syed 8y ago

Agree, the only way to make it work would be to have a credible deterrent. I suspect some private organisations have, or will soon have the capability to deploy orbital kinetic energy weapons. Much cleaner than nukes, and easier to scale a response up and down as needed.

opwieurposiu 8y ago
With crisper and gene editing tech advancing rapidly, bioweapons could soon make a credible deterrent for smaller actors. Any deterrent would need to some kind of dead man switch to release the virus if the nation is nuked or they would be at risk of a decapitation strike.