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This is interesting - as Jack at Twitter also expressed the same sentiment in removing likes and retweets. Alot of twitter users fired back because it was to pr

This is interesting - as Jack at Twitter also expressed the same sentiment in removing likes and retweets. Alot of twitter users fired back because it was to prevent large ($), but unpopular, accounts from being ratio'd (meaning being embarrassed by their comment-to-like ratio, if the ratio is high, it is being you said something dumb, that no one likes). The way instagram frames this is sort of healthier, but I can't imagine Facebook doing this just for social good.

kristopolous 8y ago
I've often thought social media would be far better without a share button or at least some larger barrier to doing it. Encouraging reposts is one of the big reasons the internet isn't fun anymore. The push model of content consumption needs a lot of fixes to live up to the pull model of content exploration The weird wacky web full of discovery is long dead. We need to rebuild it and undo the missteps that killed it
- Techonomicon 8y ago
  The problem is people make honest livings off of doing things that at this day and age require these sorts of mechanisms within social networks to allow them to thrive and work for themselves vs a company. Many individual / independent creators 100% rely on the ability to reach others and people generally respond to the flock of many people liking / sharing a single post of some kind. I don't think it's fair to negate this as being useful. We with generally much better paying jobs to stress / work life balance ratio within the tech industry have the privilege of not having to worry about such things being taken away and literally taking our paychecks away as well.
  - kristopolous 8y ago
    That's a buggy whip argument; defending an industry that essentially nobody wants because there's economic activity in it somewhere. It can be made about just about anything. Besides, having a broken labor market is a pretty poor reason for intentionally perpetuating a broken internet
  - CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
    On the topic of votes. At the time of this writing the comment I’m responding to is grayed out. Presumably due to downvotes from people not agreeing with the sentiment. I probably don’t agree to it either, but I find the perspective brought into the discussion to be a good contribution. I see this quite often, and actually tend to spend most of my votes “rescuing” comments, that at least shouldn’t be suppressed just for being unpopular. There is a kind of bias at play where dissenting opinions are held to a much higher standard of quality and thus having a higher chance for being censored. So I’ve been thinking if there should be a separation of quality and sentiment votes. Perhaps it would prevent some accidental censoring. Writing this it occurs to me that the bias would probably still be there though. So a more qualitative approach perhaps. One could imagine some mechanism by which the poster is allowed to iterate on the comment, based on feedback, before final judgement.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      I too would like to see an experiment with two types of votes (agree/disagree and quality/shitpost), but I don't think there's a big problem here. Things balance out in the end. Some people instinctively downvote things they disagree with, other upvote posts for quality regardless of their personal position on the topic; some, like you, rescue comments. Things can be in flux initially, but within couple of hours they stabilize, and the outcome is decent enough. The key thing is not treating karma points and "black/grey" instability personally; it's just the mechanism at work.
    - your-nanny 8y ago
      same.
    - your-nanny 8y ago
      Why not require that written replies or justifications be provided for each vote. probably because of the voter's utility of voting is cheap expressions of approval or disapproval, without requiring the effort of engaging the poster or formulating the reasons for voting at all. Hence, I suspect voting discourages engagement. For downvotes it discourages the kind of engagement that derails productive conversations (ie it inhibits flamewars by providing cheaper outlet for negatively valenced emotional responses).
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    The problem is, individual/independent creators making honest living off these features have to do it this way because of all the people - advertisers, content marketers - making dishonest living (and quite good a living), creating a people-hostile environment. The system needs very deep changes, but that doesn't mean we can't have the welfare of artists and writers in mind when proposing or implementing those changes.
  - AznHisoka 8y ago
    “Many individual / independent creators 100% rely on the ability to reach others and people generally respond to the flock of many people liking / sharing a single post of some kind.“ what if Instagram let you see only your page metrics, but nobody elses?
- ankimal 8y ago
  Instagram is the only large social network that does not have a "reshare" FWIW.
koboll 8y ago
"being ratio'd" is completely toxic behavior. It is dogpiling someone on the internet. The quality of replies it encourages is reliably the lowest of the low. Trying to protect that practice is not very defensible; dumb tweets can be quote-tweeted and lambasted that way.
- nkrisc 8y ago
  Or just, you know, ignored, like we used to do to dumb statements. But I completely agree with you. The argument against the removal of those visible metrics on twitter sounds like an argument for toxicity, even if it is cloaked in a jab against big corp accounts.

kristopolous 8y ago

I've often thought social media would be far better without a share button or at least some larger barrier to doing it. Encouraging reposts is one of the big reasons the internet isn't fun anymore. The push model of content consumption needs a lot of fixes to live up to the pull model of content exploration The weird wacky web full of discovery is long dead. We need to rebuild it and undo the missteps that killed it

Techonomicon 8y ago
The problem is people make honest livings off of doing things that at this day and age require these sorts of mechanisms within social networks to allow them to thrive and work for themselves vs a company. Many individual / independent creators 100% rely on the ability to reach others and people generally respond to the flock of many people liking / sharing a single post of some kind. I don't think it's fair to negate this as being useful. We with generally much better paying jobs to stress / work life balance ratio within the tech industry have the privilege of not having to worry about such things being taken away and literally taking our paychecks away as well.
- kristopolous 8y ago
  That's a buggy whip argument; defending an industry that essentially nobody wants because there's economic activity in it somewhere. It can be made about just about anything. Besides, having a broken labor market is a pretty poor reason for intentionally perpetuating a broken internet
- CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
  On the topic of votes. At the time of this writing the comment I’m responding to is grayed out. Presumably due to downvotes from people not agreeing with the sentiment. I probably don’t agree to it either, but I find the perspective brought into the discussion to be a good contribution. I see this quite often, and actually tend to spend most of my votes “rescuing” comments, that at least shouldn’t be suppressed just for being unpopular. There is a kind of bias at play where dissenting opinions are held to a much higher standard of quality and thus having a higher chance for being censored. So I’ve been thinking if there should be a separation of quality and sentiment votes. Perhaps it would prevent some accidental censoring. Writing this it occurs to me that the bias would probably still be there though. So a more qualitative approach perhaps. One could imagine some mechanism by which the poster is allowed to iterate on the comment, based on feedback, before final judgement.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    I too would like to see an experiment with two types of votes (agree/disagree and quality/shitpost), but I don't think there's a big problem here. Things balance out in the end. Some people instinctively downvote things they disagree with, other upvote posts for quality regardless of their personal position on the topic; some, like you, rescue comments. Things can be in flux initially, but within couple of hours they stabilize, and the outcome is decent enough. The key thing is not treating karma points and "black/grey" instability personally; it's just the mechanism at work.
  - your-nanny 8y ago
    same.
  - your-nanny 8y ago
    Why not require that written replies or justifications be provided for each vote. probably because of the voter's utility of voting is cheap expressions of approval or disapproval, without requiring the effort of engaging the poster or formulating the reasons for voting at all. Hence, I suspect voting discourages engagement. For downvotes it discourages the kind of engagement that derails productive conversations (ie it inhibits flamewars by providing cheaper outlet for negatively valenced emotional responses).
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  The problem is, individual/independent creators making honest living off these features have to do it this way because of all the people - advertisers, content marketers - making dishonest living (and quite good a living), creating a people-hostile environment. The system needs very deep changes, but that doesn't mean we can't have the welfare of artists and writers in mind when proposing or implementing those changes.
- AznHisoka 8y ago
  “Many individual / independent creators 100% rely on the ability to reach others and people generally respond to the flock of many people liking / sharing a single post of some kind.“ what if Instagram let you see only your page metrics, but nobody elses?
ankimal 8y ago
Instagram is the only large social network that does not have a "reshare" FWIW.

koboll 8y ago

"being ratio'd" is completely toxic behavior. It is dogpiling someone on the internet. The quality of replies it encourages is reliably the lowest of the low. Trying to protect that practice is not very defensible; dumb tweets can be quote-tweeted and lambasted that way.

nkrisc 8y ago
Or just, you know, ignored, like we used to do to dumb statements. But I completely agree with you. The argument against the removal of those visible metrics on twitter sounds like an argument for toxicity, even if it is cloaked in a jab against big corp accounts.