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Yikes! Former USSR component States are just......horrific. The literature of the culture is not very happy ending-ish. Interesting to see happiness in US fe

Yikes! Former USSR component States are just......horrific. The literature of the culture is not very happy ending-ish. Interesting to see happiness in US females, a very solid and consistent lifelong upward trend after bottoming out in the late 20’s, early 30’s. Vast difference from Western European women, almost a mirror opposite. Western European men are almost a lifelong flatline. I wonder why that is? From some reason I’m left with a random thought along the lines of “egalitarianism of happiness” for Western European males.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
Note that India's highest point is lower than former-USSR's lowest. I know India is still developing, but I wouldn't have thought it was that bad.
- exelius 8y ago
  Inequality is deeply ingrained into Indian culture. The bureaucracy is crushing, making it extremely difficult to start a business or improve your station in life without money and the right connections. India is not a place where “all men are created equal” — your value and station in life is largely determined by your caste, birth location, and family name. The people who escape the trap are the exceptions that prove the rule. I suspect that a combination of an inefficient bureaucracy (and the accompanying loss of opportunity and competitiveness in international markets) and gross social inequality has a large part to do with it — especially considering ~70% of the population lives in relatively poor villages dotting the countryside.
  - badpun 8y ago
    I'd say hundreds of millions living in crushing poverty is the biggest contributing factor. You'd have to be really tough to not be miserable in such circumstances.
    - exelius 8y ago
      I mean, the crushing poverty is the result of the caste system and the accompanying wealth inequality. If it were just poverty, it might be possible to dig out. The lowest castes are effectively slave laborers. They’re willing to travel to places like Dubai to sell themselves into actual slavery for a chance to send one of their kids to a good school. They’re not dumb or unaware of the world outside their impoverished lives, they just have no access to it themselves.
bluetomcat 8y ago
Lots of cultural and societal differences. US vs Western Europe: worse work-life balance, bigger families with more kids at an earlier age, more stay-at-home moms. Eventually the kids grow up, one or both of the parents advance in the career and happiness goes up. On the other hand, Europeans look for kids at an age where they already feel financially stable.
exelius 8y ago
I think it’s what I call the “trough of disallusionment”. For women in the US at least, your late 20s / early 30s are spent grappling with the reality that the job market is still grossly unfair. Women get fewer opportunities, lower pay and less power. It’s fucking depressing because there is still retaliation for speaking up — any women in power got there by propagating the status quo, and they’re honestly more likely to retaliate. I also suspect part of the increase in happiness is due to the number of women who extricate themselves from such situations and find happiness and satisfaction elsewhere. I suspect Europe simply pushes the “trough of disallusionment” out further. Sure, there are stronger protections in the workplace, but they only really protect the people at the bottom. As you grow older, the burdens just accumulate.
- imesh 8y ago
  Than why does it look like their happiness is only a few percentage points different than men?
  - exelius 8y ago
    Because shit sucks for everyone, it just sucks a little more the further you get from “straight white male”.
cheschire 8y ago
In Germany I've seen several women first-hand start to become unhappy in their 60's and 70's because they now have to deal with their retired husband full-time. German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age, and more quick to challenge things they view as incorrect than they would in their youth. This turns into constant harassment for some wives.
- louthy 8y ago
  > German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age Perhaps, the men are also depressed? Maybe if they feel like they're not useful any more because they don't work.
  - RankingMember 8y ago
    I think that's a huge deal, and it's not just German men. Finding a new purpose after having a clear-cut one in the form of a job is something I think can be the difference between a depressed post-work experience or a happy one.
    - badpun 8y ago
      It could be worse in Germans, though. My (limited) observations of them say that they're on average more conscientious, work and duty-oriented than my fellow Poles. And, when the work/duty ends, it's easier for your life to become hollow.
ivanhoe 8y ago
In ex-USSR you need to account for a drastic change of world that 40+ years old had to live through, complete change of world views and moral, loss of social and financial security, and all other horrors of transition period. Very few people got out of it feeling better. As old people die and younger generations replace them I presume that the graph will start to look more and more like the other countries.
- jondubois 8y ago
  The collapse of communism opened up significant opportunities for wealth accumulation, but this mostly benefited younger people who were ambitious and willing to bend the rules.
  - antisthenes 8y ago
    There is very little wealth accumulation happening in CIS countries post-collapse for the vast majority of people. The wealthy young are usually just children of wealthy adults, of whom there aren't many. There was a marginal uptrend in happiness and prosperity in the 2004-2008 era, when oil prices were high (for countries that had oil production), but mostly, inequality has been skyrocketing and salaries have been flat for a decade now if not more. Some countries have never really climbed out of poverty after the collapse of communism (Ukraine, Moldova, Tajikistan, etc.)
  - sedachv 8y ago
    > ambitious and willing to bend the rules. Please don't call organized crime a "willingness to bend the rules."
- chriselles 8y ago
  Agreed and good point! 1991-2000 would have been a horrible time for the vast majority of Russians and citizens of former satellites. Civil freedoms may have improved, but not economic or health outcomes. Especially for late career or retirees.
  - tasuki 8y ago

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

Note that India's highest point is lower than former-USSR's lowest. I know India is still developing, but I wouldn't have thought it was that bad.

exelius 8y ago
Inequality is deeply ingrained into Indian culture. The bureaucracy is crushing, making it extremely difficult to start a business or improve your station in life without money and the right connections. India is not a place where “all men are created equal” — your value and station in life is largely determined by your caste, birth location, and family name. The people who escape the trap are the exceptions that prove the rule. I suspect that a combination of an inefficient bureaucracy (and the accompanying loss of opportunity and competitiveness in international markets) and gross social inequality has a large part to do with it — especially considering ~70% of the population lives in relatively poor villages dotting the countryside.
- badpun 8y ago
  I'd say hundreds of millions living in crushing poverty is the biggest contributing factor. You'd have to be really tough to not be miserable in such circumstances.
  - exelius 8y ago
    I mean, the crushing poverty is the result of the caste system and the accompanying wealth inequality. If it were just poverty, it might be possible to dig out. The lowest castes are effectively slave laborers. They’re willing to travel to places like Dubai to sell themselves into actual slavery for a chance to send one of their kids to a good school. They’re not dumb or unaware of the world outside their impoverished lives, they just have no access to it themselves.

bluetomcat 8y ago

Lots of cultural and societal differences. US vs Western Europe: worse work-life balance, bigger families with more kids at an earlier age, more stay-at-home moms. Eventually the kids grow up, one or both of the parents advance in the career and happiness goes up. On the other hand, Europeans look for kids at an age where they already feel financially stable.

exelius 8y ago

I think it’s what I call the “trough of disallusionment”. For women in the US at least, your late 20s / early 30s are spent grappling with the reality that the job market is still grossly unfair. Women get fewer opportunities, lower pay and less power. It’s fucking depressing because there is still retaliation for speaking up — any women in power got there by propagating the status quo, and they’re honestly more likely to retaliate. I also suspect part of the increase in happiness is due to the number of women who extricate themselves from such situations and find happiness and satisfaction elsewhere. I suspect Europe simply pushes the “trough of disallusionment” out further. Sure, there are stronger protections in the workplace, but they only really protect the people at the bottom. As you grow older, the burdens just accumulate.

imesh 8y ago
Than why does it look like their happiness is only a few percentage points different than men?
- exelius 8y ago
  Because shit sucks for everyone, it just sucks a little more the further you get from “straight white male”.

cheschire 8y ago

In Germany I've seen several women first-hand start to become unhappy in their 60's and 70's because they now have to deal with their retired husband full-time. German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age, and more quick to challenge things they view as incorrect than they would in their youth. This turns into constant harassment for some wives.

louthy 8y ago
> German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age Perhaps, the men are also depressed? Maybe if they feel like they're not useful any more because they don't work.
- RankingMember 8y ago
  I think that's a huge deal, and it's not just German men. Finding a new purpose after having a clear-cut one in the form of a job is something I think can be the difference between a depressed post-work experience or a happy one.
  - badpun 8y ago
    It could be worse in Germans, though. My (limited) observations of them say that they're on average more conscientious, work and duty-oriented than my fellow Poles. And, when the work/duty ends, it's easier for your life to become hollow.

ivanhoe 8y ago

In ex-USSR you need to account for a drastic change of world that 40+ years old had to live through, complete change of world views and moral, loss of social and financial security, and all other horrors of transition period. Very few people got out of it feeling better. As old people die and younger generations replace them I presume that the graph will start to look more and more like the other countries.

jondubois 8y ago
The collapse of communism opened up significant opportunities for wealth accumulation, but this mostly benefited younger people who were ambitious and willing to bend the rules.
- antisthenes 8y ago
  There is very little wealth accumulation happening in CIS countries post-collapse for the vast majority of people. The wealthy young are usually just children of wealthy adults, of whom there aren't many. There was a marginal uptrend in happiness and prosperity in the 2004-2008 era, when oil prices were high (for countries that had oil production), but mostly, inequality has been skyrocketing and salaries have been flat for a decade now if not more. Some countries have never really climbed out of poverty after the collapse of communism (Ukraine, Moldova, Tajikistan, etc.)
- sedachv 8y ago
  > ambitious and willing to bend the rules. Please don't call organized crime a "willingness to bend the rules."
chriselles 8y ago
Agreed and good point! 1991-2000 would have been a horrible time for the vast majority of Russians and citizens of former satellites. Civil freedoms may have improved, but not economic or health outcomes. Especially for late career or retirees.
- tasuki 8y ago