6 ms·

What are the biggest differences between a C64 and NES really? They both use a 6502 right? What prevents you from just overclocking the C64 to match the speed o

by tibbon 8y ago

What are the biggest differences between a C64 and NES really? They both use a 6502 right? What prevents you from just overclocking the C64 to match the speed of the NES? Different memory layout?

fooblitzky 8y ago
Completely different graphics hardware, the C64 used the VIC-II, and the NES had a custom Picture Processing Unit (PPU) developed by Ricoh, among other things. The CPU is only a small part of a larger design, and 8-bit computers were created before any kind of standardization arrived.
throwaway2048 8y ago
8 bit micros of the era are much more dependent on their graphics hardware, what makes this demo impressive is that the c64 had a much more limited graphics chip than the NES (fewer sprites, fewer colors, and no support for tile based scrolling)
- vidarh 8y ago
  > no support for tile based scrolling Pretty every scrolling game on the C64 uses the character mode as "tiles". It may well have been more limited than the NES - I have no idea what the NES hardware was like, but it reduced the amount of copying enough that it was rarely a major problem. The low number of hardware sprites usable per raster line was sometimes a limitation, but not very often - people got around it by using characters and/or careful level design. While this is cool, I'm surprised people find this impressive - it's nothing special for C64 games. E.g. compare the Mario clone Giana Sisters (1987): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teXm6723-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teXm6723-g To a more technically impressive C64 scrolling game like R-Type: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft5BhWIzTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft5BhWIzTU Or Shadow of the Beast (though a shadow - sorry - of the Amiga version) with its many parallax layers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_GdJiEjSho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_GdJiEjSho Both have heavy use of a mix of raster interrupts to scroll independent parts of the screen separately, and sprites, coupled with updating the bitmap of some custom characters.
  - SyneRyder 8y ago
    Just a bit of trivia - both Great Giana Sisters (ie Super Mario Bros clone) and R-Type were coded by Manfred Trenz. He seemed to keep perfecting scrolling techniques & 'cloning' games. He made a C64 game called Katakis that was so similar to the R-Type arcade game, Activision blocked its release & threatened him with a lawsuit [1] - unless he accepted a contract to make Amiga & C64 Versions of R-Type. (He also made Turrican. The guy was a genius. His C64 games are one of the things that inspired me to become a programmer.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakis
  - strainer 8y ago
    I think "Mayhem In Monsterland" was the most accomplished C64 platform scroller of the retro era. It has sonic-hedgehog-like smooth scrolling > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEkN_9gqOc&t=1249s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEkN_9gqOc&t=1249s Some amazing C64 games are being produced in recent years, for example see this one > "Sams Amazing Journey" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uHys7Vr-FY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uHys7Vr-FY
  - djmips 8y ago
    Getting an exact port like SMB is very impressive both to the initiated and the uninitiated. Great Gianna Sisters aside, this SMB port is impressive. To the uninitiated it's impressive because they may have never expected the C64 could do such a thing. But that's fine. To the initiated this port is impressive because of the level of polish; attention to detail and quality of the gameplay matching the original. Anybody can carve wood but only a great artist can do it very well. This is a game not a tech demo. The Shadow of the Beast was a demo even on the Amiga. Where we agree is R-Type. Superb.
    - vidarh 8y ago
      The level of polish may be artistically impressive to those familiar with the original game, but it's not particularly technically impressive. It's not a complex game by C64 standards, and to have slowdowns in such a simple game does not feel like it's polished. I get that this is a port, and that they've more concerned with matching the original as closely as possible and less with optimizing for the C64, and that's of course a valid choice, and praising them for matching the original is not something I take issue with. I'm just surprised that people find it impressive. To me, looking at it, I wasn't impressed because I remember the games I played at the time, and it just doesn't compare all that favorably.
tom_ 8y ago
Everything in the C64 already runs at its maximum speed, or close enough to it that it makes little difference.
tinus_hn 8y ago
I don’t really know how the NES graphics work but the C64 shares the memory bus between the cpu and the ‘gpu’ (VIC) chip. Basically each cycle one half of the cycle the CPU gets to read/write one address and then the other half the GPU gets to read one thing. Sometimes the GPU needs more accesses and then it stalls the CPU. You can’t change the timing of the GPU because then it doesn’t output the picture at the right frame rate and you can’t change the timing of the CPU because then it clashes with the GPU. And also if you speed things up the memory runs out of spec and you run into glitches. And then, if you would somehow speed up the CPU the software doesn’t run because most of it requires cycle-exact behavior matching the GPU.

by tibbon 8y ago

What are the biggest differences between a C64 and NES really? They both use a 6502 right? What prevents you from just overclocking the C64 to match the speed of the NES? Different memory layout?

fooblitzky 8y ago

Completely different graphics hardware, the C64 used the VIC-II, and the NES had a custom Picture Processing Unit (PPU) developed by Ricoh, among other things. The CPU is only a small part of a larger design, and 8-bit computers were created before any kind of standardization arrived.

throwaway2048 8y ago

8 bit micros of the era are much more dependent on their graphics hardware, what makes this demo impressive is that the c64 had a much more limited graphics chip than the NES (fewer sprites, fewer colors, and no support for tile based scrolling)

vidarh 8y ago
> no support for tile based scrolling Pretty every scrolling game on the C64 uses the character mode as "tiles". It may well have been more limited than the NES - I have no idea what the NES hardware was like, but it reduced the amount of copying enough that it was rarely a major problem. The low number of hardware sprites usable per raster line was sometimes a limitation, but not very often - people got around it by using characters and/or careful level design. While this is cool, I'm surprised people find this impressive - it's nothing special for C64 games. E.g. compare the Mario clone Giana Sisters (1987): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teXm6723-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teXm6723-g To a more technically impressive C64 scrolling game like R-Type: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft5BhWIzTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft5BhWIzTU Or Shadow of the Beast (though a shadow - sorry - of the Amiga version) with its many parallax layers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_GdJiEjSho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_GdJiEjSho Both have heavy use of a mix of raster interrupts to scroll independent parts of the screen separately, and sprites, coupled with updating the bitmap of some custom characters.
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  Just a bit of trivia - both Great Giana Sisters (ie Super Mario Bros clone) and R-Type were coded by Manfred Trenz. He seemed to keep perfecting scrolling techniques & 'cloning' games. He made a C64 game called Katakis that was so similar to the R-Type arcade game, Activision blocked its release & threatened him with a lawsuit [1] - unless he accepted a contract to make Amiga & C64 Versions of R-Type. (He also made Turrican. The guy was a genius. His C64 games are one of the things that inspired me to become a programmer.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakis
- strainer 8y ago
  I think "Mayhem In Monsterland" was the most accomplished C64 platform scroller of the retro era. It has sonic-hedgehog-like smooth scrolling > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEkN_9gqOc&t=1249s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEkN_9gqOc&t=1249s Some amazing C64 games are being produced in recent years, for example see this one > "Sams Amazing Journey" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uHys7Vr-FY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uHys7Vr-FY
- djmips 8y ago
  Getting an exact port like SMB is very impressive both to the initiated and the uninitiated. Great Gianna Sisters aside, this SMB port is impressive. To the uninitiated it's impressive because they may have never expected the C64 could do such a thing. But that's fine. To the initiated this port is impressive because of the level of polish; attention to detail and quality of the gameplay matching the original. Anybody can carve wood but only a great artist can do it very well. This is a game not a tech demo. The Shadow of the Beast was a demo even on the Amiga. Where we agree is R-Type. Superb.
  - vidarh 8y ago
    The level of polish may be artistically impressive to those familiar with the original game, but it's not particularly technically impressive. It's not a complex game by C64 standards, and to have slowdowns in such a simple game does not feel like it's polished. I get that this is a port, and that they've more concerned with matching the original as closely as possible and less with optimizing for the C64, and that's of course a valid choice, and praising them for matching the original is not something I take issue with. I'm just surprised that people find it impressive. To me, looking at it, I wasn't impressed because I remember the games I played at the time, and it just doesn't compare all that favorably.

tom_ 8y ago

Everything in the C64 already runs at its maximum speed, or close enough to it that it makes little difference.

tinus_hn 8y ago

I don’t really know how the NES graphics work but the C64 shares the memory bus between the cpu and the ‘gpu’ (VIC) chip. Basically each cycle one half of the cycle the CPU gets to read/write one address and then the other half the GPU gets to read one thing. Sometimes the GPU needs more accesses and then it stalls the CPU. You can’t change the timing of the GPU because then it doesn’t output the picture at the right frame rate and you can’t change the timing of the CPU because then it clashes with the GPU. And also if you speed things up the memory runs out of spec and you run into glitches. And then, if you would somehow speed up the CPU the software doesn’t run because most of it requires cycle-exact behavior matching the GPU.