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I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Just be careful, I guess,

I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Just be careful, I guess, and get plenty of advice from real people who took that path (successfully or not). Oh, and a bachelor's in engineering physics seems to lead to nothing as well. Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". They just went on to grad school in plain old physics since they had 0 other options besides learning to code.

mrits 8y ago
I've never considered being a PhD dropout a bad thing. There are so many legit reasons for not finishing a program.
- rongenre 8y ago
  I've been in recruiting discussions where we specifically wanted an ABD in CS (we wanted ability, but also eagerness to work in a new subject area). Although, it's conceivable that being both ABD and not specifically in CS is seen as a bridge too far.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Why did you want an ABD but not a PhD holder though?
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      Interest in "something new, anything new" tends to substantially increase in the past 2ish months of a PhD. Not sure if this is a reason for or against.
    - hueving 8y ago
      Intimidation.
  - j7ake 8y ago
    That seems to be an unnecessarily narrow band of candidates you want. You would be missing out on possibly good candidates just because they got a PhD.
- oneepic 8y ago
  Just to clarify, I don't think it's inherently a bad thing either. But these were the words given to me by physics grad students at the time.
kwoff 8y ago
When I was an undergrad, a classmate told me a Master's in Physics was a "kiss of death". I did stop with a Master's (didn't even go to the graduation ceremony, since it felt like dropping out), though financially I'm good since I went into the web world (started around the bubble's peak). I kinda buy that it helped develop my analytical thinking skills, though in the long run I'm not sure that mattered. Recently I'm also feeling something else that I was warned about: what I'm doing isn't fulfilling. So, it's kinda cliche, but I'd say do what you like doing, not what you think will make you money.
- vturner 8y ago
  Have an undergraduate in physics and masters in applied math. It's odd how development and the occasional bit of analysis is not too fulfilling. Maybe it's the lack of intellectual challenge?
klrr 8y ago
Interesting, in Scandinavia Engineering Physics is quite prestigious and many graduates end up as SWEs. In fact many researchers across Sweden hold Engineering Physics degrees in CS and other disciplines outside physics.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  In Sweden I definitely observed this. I worked with quite a few SWE's who went to a technical university (LTH, Uppsala as primary examples) and held engineering physics degrees. From talking and working with people, though, I think it's because it's quite easy in Swedish technical university curricula to take SWE courses that count towards your degree. There is also quite much more of an applied engineering approach vs. theoretical than you would expect which might also play a role in this.
- Avshalom 8y ago
  Is ending up as a SWE prestigious?
- robertAngst 8y ago
  But then you are an Engineer. I love engineering, but physics is often theoretical to the point that its useless for macro application. I imagine an Engineering Physics is an Engineer.
ErotemeObelus 8y ago
> I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Students who do a Master's before going on to Ph.D. are usually more competent and more useful to the university. This is FUD created by graduate students to prevent competition.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Denzel 8y ago
Is Engineering Physics considered lesser than a Physics degree, or are you saying that both an Engineering Physics and a Physics degree seem to lead to nothing? What's the difference?
- oneepic 8y ago
  Apples and oranges. I just mentioned it because I saw another comment somewhere about engr. physics, and it reminded me of my friends' experiences in their program.
Balgair 8y ago
I'll echo this. In the US, having just a MS in Physics means that you failed your quals. Though it may not be true, this is the 'popular' perception.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  In the UK we often make the dropout degree an MPhil or MRes, so it's different to people who started an MSc with the intention of just doing that degree.
- jeff_friesen 8y ago
  I'm a physics PhD dropout. I dropped out sometime after passing my quals and oral exams. But I could not have gotten a masters without passing those. I've never heard that it's a perception that you got a masters because you didn't pass.
dlokshin 8y ago
If you're in a Physics masters or Ph.D. program and are thinking about dropping out because academia is not for you, please email me: david [at] TraceUp.com. We are hiring people like you.
agentofoblivion 8y ago
That hasn’t been my experience. I have M.S. in physics at a shitty school and went into industry. (I didn’t fail anything, and actually had a 4.0 gpa, just didn’t want to spend more time in school). Eventually switched from material science to data science. Currently an ML research scientist at AWS. It’s been a fun journey. No one gave a shit about what I did or didn’t do in college. It might matter to HR people, which can be the resume gate keepers. But the hiring managers and peers don’t care. In fact, if you polled them, I would guess half would know my background is in physics, a third that I have a masters, and 0 which school I went to.
- hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
  Any tips for getting into Amazon's research arm? I'm in the market, as it were.
  - agentofoblivion 8y ago
    Research Scientists are mainly just data scientist in that we’re building models for the business, not just for papers. But we do try to push the boundary and contribute academically. The Data Scientist job family is similar, but lower technical bar and heavier on SQL/basic analysis. To get into RS position, just know your ML/stats basics well and be proficient in SQL. Nothing super hard about getting an RS role.
    - hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
      Gotcha, thanks.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Would be interested to hear what you do and don’t like about your job and what skills you learned from your degree
  - agentofoblivion 8y ago
    I can’t actually think of anything I don’t like about my current job. The main thing I’ve learned from physics is being comfortable with mathematics and the confidence to work through tough technical stuff that I don’t understand. I think the math basics and grit can take you a long way.
thatoneuser 8y ago
I have a masters in physics and know people who do to with different results. One thing you gotta realize is physicists tend to be very smart people and often enough "lazy". Or I should say - don't like putting on a suit for a 9-5. They're different people. And a lot of then value living their lives over slaving away and are OK with that.
SpaceRaccoon 8y ago
>Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". It's true, but I'm glad it happened this way. I don't want to work at any company that doesn't recognize the value of this degree. I'm a SWE in a FAANG now, and I think I do much more interesting work than if I had just joined a company looking for a CS grad. And to be clear, I only have a Ba. But, advice to other EngPhys grads looking for jobs or internships: don't mention the Engineering Physics degree until you've got the rep interested in you (by talking about experience, etc) or frame it in a different way. For example, my EngPhys specialization was computing, so I would talk about that first when I was at career fairs.
anmorgan 8y ago
I have a degree in Engineering Physics where I concentrated in Electrical Engineering. I also minored in Industrial Design. I currently work at a product design firm as an "Embedded Systems Engineer", where I primarily design and write software for embedded microcontrollers and microprocessors and couple that with user experience design. I have been able to utilize my understanding of physics to work on things like designing sensors into products that require real world math (motion, position, motor control, etc), though not as extensive as it could be if it were academic research. And have used my circuits foundation to understand how to get answers in the realm of embedded micros. The thing I emphasize the most though, is understand where you want to have an expertise and make it happen, work on it. Mine is embedded software with a user focused design process. Fresh out of college, your degree is not going to separate you unless it's coupled with experience from internships, school projects, or personal projects. My opinion is that a degree in engineering provides foundation, but real world experience is where you grow and learn for your career. Side note: You mentioned "other than learning code", I think that is a valid option to supplement this degree. I started writing code in eighth grade, so it was something I was already doing and interested in. I never wanted to be a plain ol' software developer, so this path was good for me. TL;DR Went to school for Engineering Physics, I am happy with my career path, but took it upon myself to find a way to provide value beyond the name of my degree.
- throway1 8y ago
  >plain ol' software developer Oh, you resonate with me (not sure if. I am going to start an undergrad in physics soon, and started doubting my choice after this thread. I got into programming from 9th grade. I am still interested in it, but I kinda grew over my crush on being a dev in FAANG and silicon valley startups. I have the opportunity to got to a SE program, but I don't like the lack of humanity(and other) electives in eng programs. I am also accepted to a CS program, but the school with the physics-math program have a better name and opportunities around it. The CS program is in a mainly-undergrad school in a suburb-ish city. Do you think I would still be good sticking with physics and complement it with personal projects and CS electives/minor? (This is Ottawa, Canada)
  - 8y ago
codesushi42 8y ago
Unsubstantiated hearsay. How does a Master's imply you are a PhD dropout? Plenty of people go with the expectation of only Master's to begin with. Heck, this distinction is even made when you enroll in the Master's program in Stanford CS instead of the PhD program. They are treated as different tracks that you can't move between.
- analog31 8y ago
  When I was a physics undergrad student, I remember being told by advisors that a Master's was considered to be a booby prize. We were told that grad programs would only consider students who indicated an interest in a PhD. One possible reason is that grad student funding was limited, and they didn't want to waste it on students who weren't going to contribute to research. All physics grad students were fully funded. I'm not sure this is true today. So far as I could tell, this was strictly limited to physics. My graduate program was almost exclusively PhD students, and the terminal Master's was used as an escape hatch. On the other hand, those students did just fine in the job market, so it could be just a peculiarity of the academic culture that is not reflected outside of the academe. Working in industry after my degree, I encountered people with Masters in physics, who were doing just fine, and they did not strike me as inferior -- they just didn't want to stay for a PhD.
  - m463 8y ago
    I kind of suspect there's a possible bias from the advisor. It could be on behalf of their employer - they have a shortage of a certain class of student at the university. or it could like engineers who too easily recommend extremely over-powered computers for friends and family not in the industry who are thinking about buying a computer.
    - analog31 8y ago
      It was pretty widespread. PhD students generally outnumbered MS students, fairly substantially. I went to a second tier program, and there were zero MS students. It wasn't a thing. My own college didn't have a graduate program. This was based on multiple advisors having similar expectations about applying for grad school.
PopeDotNinja 8y ago
Keep in mind that career fairs are attended by people looking for a very specific kind of hire and/or they're just looking to get you to visit their careers website. A Google engineering recruiter at a Stanford career fair isn't there to chat an English major who is excited about the computer science for liberal arts majors course they took. They're basically not interested in talking to anyone, as because standing there all day saying "tell me about yourself" and answer "what does you company do?" is mind numbingly boring once you've done it a few times. If you're working at a career fair, the only thing you're looking forward to is an after hours happy hour.

mrits 8y ago

I've never considered being a PhD dropout a bad thing. There are so many legit reasons for not finishing a program.

rongenre 8y ago
I've been in recruiting discussions where we specifically wanted an ABD in CS (we wanted ability, but also eagerness to work in a new subject area). Although, it's conceivable that being both ABD and not specifically in CS is seen as a bridge too far.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Why did you want an ABD but not a PhD holder though?
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    Interest in "something new, anything new" tends to substantially increase in the past 2ish months of a PhD. Not sure if this is a reason for or against.
  - hueving 8y ago
    Intimidation.
- j7ake 8y ago
  That seems to be an unnecessarily narrow band of candidates you want. You would be missing out on possibly good candidates just because they got a PhD.
oneepic 8y ago
Just to clarify, I don't think it's inherently a bad thing either. But these were the words given to me by physics grad students at the time.

kwoff 8y ago

When I was an undergrad, a classmate told me a Master's in Physics was a "kiss of death". I did stop with a Master's (didn't even go to the graduation ceremony, since it felt like dropping out), though financially I'm good since I went into the web world (started around the bubble's peak). I kinda buy that it helped develop my analytical thinking skills, though in the long run I'm not sure that mattered. Recently I'm also feeling something else that I was warned about: what I'm doing isn't fulfilling. So, it's kinda cliche, but I'd say do what you like doing, not what you think will make you money.

vturner 8y ago
Have an undergraduate in physics and masters in applied math. It's odd how development and the occasional bit of analysis is not too fulfilling. Maybe it's the lack of intellectual challenge?

klrr 8y ago

Interesting, in Scandinavia Engineering Physics is quite prestigious and many graduates end up as SWEs. In fact many researchers across Sweden hold Engineering Physics degrees in CS and other disciplines outside physics.

SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
In Sweden I definitely observed this. I worked with quite a few SWE's who went to a technical university (LTH, Uppsala as primary examples) and held engineering physics degrees. From talking and working with people, though, I think it's because it's quite easy in Swedish technical university curricula to take SWE courses that count towards your degree. There is also quite much more of an applied engineering approach vs. theoretical than you would expect which might also play a role in this.
Avshalom 8y ago
Is ending up as a SWE prestigious?
robertAngst 8y ago
But then you are an Engineer. I love engineering, but physics is often theoretical to the point that its useless for macro application. I imagine an Engineering Physics is an Engineer.

ErotemeObelus 8y ago

> I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Students who do a Master's before going on to Ph.D. are usually more competent and more useful to the university. This is FUD created by graduate students to prevent competition.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Denzel 8y ago

Is Engineering Physics considered lesser than a Physics degree, or are you saying that both an Engineering Physics and a Physics degree seem to lead to nothing? What's the difference?

oneepic 8y ago
Apples and oranges. I just mentioned it because I saw another comment somewhere about engr. physics, and it reminded me of my friends' experiences in their program.

Balgair 8y ago

I'll echo this. In the US, having just a MS in Physics means that you failed your quals. Though it may not be true, this is the 'popular' perception.

chrisseaton 8y ago
In the UK we often make the dropout degree an MPhil or MRes, so it's different to people who started an MSc with the intention of just doing that degree.
jeff_friesen 8y ago
I'm a physics PhD dropout. I dropped out sometime after passing my quals and oral exams. But I could not have gotten a masters without passing those. I've never heard that it's a perception that you got a masters because you didn't pass.

dlokshin 8y ago

If you're in a Physics masters or Ph.D. program and are thinking about dropping out because academia is not for you, please email me: david [at] TraceUp.com. We are hiring people like you.

agentofoblivion 8y ago

That hasn’t been my experience. I have M.S. in physics at a shitty school and went into industry. (I didn’t fail anything, and actually had a 4.0 gpa, just didn’t want to spend more time in school). Eventually switched from material science to data science. Currently an ML research scientist at AWS. It’s been a fun journey. No one gave a shit about what I did or didn’t do in college. It might matter to HR people, which can be the resume gate keepers. But the hiring managers and peers don’t care. In fact, if you polled them, I would guess half would know my background is in physics, a third that I have a masters, and 0 which school I went to.

hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
Any tips for getting into Amazon's research arm? I'm in the market, as it were.
- agentofoblivion 8y ago
  Research Scientists are mainly just data scientist in that we’re building models for the business, not just for papers. But we do try to push the boundary and contribute academically. The Data Scientist job family is similar, but lower technical bar and heavier on SQL/basic analysis. To get into RS position, just know your ML/stats basics well and be proficient in SQL. Nothing super hard about getting an RS role.
  - hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
    Gotcha, thanks.
selimthegrim 8y ago
Would be interested to hear what you do and don’t like about your job and what skills you learned from your degree
- agentofoblivion 8y ago
  I can’t actually think of anything I don’t like about my current job. The main thing I’ve learned from physics is being comfortable with mathematics and the confidence to work through tough technical stuff that I don’t understand. I think the math basics and grit can take you a long way.

thatoneuser 8y ago

I have a masters in physics and know people who do to with different results. One thing you gotta realize is physicists tend to be very smart people and often enough "lazy". Or I should say - don't like putting on a suit for a 9-5. They're different people. And a lot of then value living their lives over slaving away and are OK with that.

SpaceRaccoon 8y ago

>Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". It's true, but I'm glad it happened this way. I don't want to work at any company that doesn't recognize the value of this degree. I'm a SWE in a FAANG now, and I think I do much more interesting work than if I had just joined a company looking for a CS grad. And to be clear, I only have a Ba. But, advice to other EngPhys grads looking for jobs or internships: don't mention the Engineering Physics degree until you've got the rep interested in you (by talking about experience, etc) or frame it in a different way. For example, my EngPhys specialization was computing, so I would talk about that first when I was at career fairs.

anmorgan 8y ago

I have a degree in Engineering Physics where I concentrated in Electrical Engineering. I also minored in Industrial Design. I currently work at a product design firm as an "Embedded Systems Engineer", where I primarily design and write software for embedded microcontrollers and microprocessors and couple that with user experience design. I have been able to utilize my understanding of physics to work on things like designing sensors into products that require real world math (motion, position, motor control, etc), though not as extensive as it could be if it were academic research. And have used my circuits foundation to understand how to get answers in the realm of embedded micros. The thing I emphasize the most though, is understand where you want to have an expertise and make it happen, work on it. Mine is embedded software with a user focused design process. Fresh out of college, your degree is not going to separate you unless it's coupled with experience from internships, school projects, or personal projects. My opinion is that a degree in engineering provides foundation, but real world experience is where you grow and learn for your career. Side note: You mentioned "other than learning code", I think that is a valid option to supplement this degree. I started writing code in eighth grade, so it was something I was already doing and interested in. I never wanted to be a plain ol' software developer, so this path was good for me. TL;DR Went to school for Engineering Physics, I am happy with my career path, but took it upon myself to find a way to provide value beyond the name of my degree.

throway1 8y ago
>plain ol' software developer Oh, you resonate with me (not sure if. I am going to start an undergrad in physics soon, and started doubting my choice after this thread. I got into programming from 9th grade. I am still interested in it, but I kinda grew over my crush on being a dev in FAANG and silicon valley startups. I have the opportunity to got to a SE program, but I don't like the lack of humanity(and other) electives in eng programs. I am also accepted to a CS program, but the school with the physics-math program have a better name and opportunities around it. The CS program is in a mainly-undergrad school in a suburb-ish city. Do you think I would still be good sticking with physics and complement it with personal projects and CS electives/minor? (This is Ottawa, Canada)
- 8y ago

codesushi42 8y ago

Unsubstantiated hearsay. How does a Master's imply you are a PhD dropout? Plenty of people go with the expectation of only Master's to begin with. Heck, this distinction is even made when you enroll in the Master's program in Stanford CS instead of the PhD program. They are treated as different tracks that you can't move between.

analog31 8y ago
When I was a physics undergrad student, I remember being told by advisors that a Master's was considered to be a booby prize. We were told that grad programs would only consider students who indicated an interest in a PhD. One possible reason is that grad student funding was limited, and they didn't want to waste it on students who weren't going to contribute to research. All physics grad students were fully funded. I'm not sure this is true today. So far as I could tell, this was strictly limited to physics. My graduate program was almost exclusively PhD students, and the terminal Master's was used as an escape hatch. On the other hand, those students did just fine in the job market, so it could be just a peculiarity of the academic culture that is not reflected outside of the academe. Working in industry after my degree, I encountered people with Masters in physics, who were doing just fine, and they did not strike me as inferior -- they just didn't want to stay for a PhD.
- m463 8y ago
  I kind of suspect there's a possible bias from the advisor. It could be on behalf of their employer - they have a shortage of a certain class of student at the university. or it could like engineers who too easily recommend extremely over-powered computers for friends and family not in the industry who are thinking about buying a computer.
  - analog31 8y ago
    It was pretty widespread. PhD students generally outnumbered MS students, fairly substantially. I went to a second tier program, and there were zero MS students. It wasn't a thing. My own college didn't have a graduate program. This was based on multiple advisors having similar expectations about applying for grad school.

PopeDotNinja 8y ago

Keep in mind that career fairs are attended by people looking for a very specific kind of hire and/or they're just looking to get you to visit their careers website. A Google engineering recruiter at a Stanford career fair isn't there to chat an English major who is excited about the computer science for liberal arts majors course they took. They're basically not interested in talking to anyone, as because standing there all day saying "tell me about yourself" and answer "what does you company do?" is mind numbingly boring once you've done it a few times. If you're working at a career fair, the only thing you're looking forward to is an after hours happy hour.