4 ms·

Idaho legislators approve law requiring transparency for risk assessment tools

48 points by danso 8y ago

danso 8y ago
Note: the law was passed by both legislative chambers in March, and was then signed by the governor on March 28th, to go into effect in July 2019: https://legislature.idaho.gov/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/h0118/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/h...
linuxlizard 8y ago
I'm surprised this didn't make any local news here in Idaho. And such an openness requirement seems at odds for Idaho's usual politics (cf. Idaho's Ag Gag laws).
- Splendor 8y ago
  The only coverage I saw was from Nathan Brown at the Idaho Press. https://www.idahopress.com/eyeonboise/bill-to-regulate-bail-algorithms-survives-but-likely-to-be/article_cc42a1ff-8c8f-5e2c-abb5-3905be3b4626.html https://www.idahopress.com/eyeonboise/bill-to-regulate-bail-...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - snuxoll 8y ago
    This is why they happily get my subscription dollars every month.
- anfilt 8y ago
  Things happen like this when it's not a issue established by any parties yet.
bilbo0s 8y ago
>It is also the first to set requirements for public access to the design and data used to build the tool’s predictions, requiring that records created during a risk assessment tool’s development, validation, and use to “be open to public inspection, auditing, and testing.”... Now these are the kinds of laws we need! This is the sort of thing we should be doing all across the US for a lot of software being used, allegedly, "in the public interest".
sandworm101 8y ago
This is lawyer trickery. Do not think that this transparency law is meant to ensure fair justice, expect the opposite. This is the equivalent of the common "open file" rule of prosecutors. Rather than sift through and release relevant material to defendants (aka Brady material) most prosecutors just declare their files open for inspection. It is then on the defense to do the sifting, to slog through the growing pile of irrelevant material. So too with this law. Rather than properly manage the system, this is the legislature throwing its hands in the air. The burden will now be on defendants to become AI experts prior to making challenges to this system. The poor defendant seeking bail will have to point our the flaws in the code.
- delinka 8y ago
  You make a valid point that this places additional burdens on defense. However, I feel like such openness is still better than allowing prosecutors to cherry-pick information to provide, or "accidentally" leave out a chunk of data, or require repeated specific motions to request each detail as the defense becomes aware of it.
  - mikeyouse 8y ago
    One benefit of the "old" way is that if the prosecution omits evidence, it can be grounds for an appeal. If the defense skips something, there's no grounds and they're just out of luck.
- danso 8y ago
  Sorry, but your analogy/comparison makes no sense. Could you provide a citation/reference to an "open file" rule that you've seen abused in such a way that it would be better to not have that rule at all? According to TFA, the Idaho state law mandates that records/data used in the design and testing of these risk assessment tools to be made public. Presumably, this information was not required to ever be disclosed upon public request. So how is "These records must be made public upon request" a net negative compared to the status quo of "The government is not required to disclose these records"?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
thedrake 8y ago
this is the exact thing that Rule Lists can do as proven by Cynthia Rudin and her team show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjxcwKN2dXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjxcwKN2dXs and https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/opening-lid-criminal-sentencing-software https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/opening-lid-criminal-sentenci... She also has an open source code for the rule lists here https://users.cs.duke.edu/~cynthia/code.html https://users.cs.duke.edu/~cynthia/code.html
ineedasername 8y ago
Isn't this rather difficult? I thought tracking back an output of something like a neural net to the salient input features was a non-trivial process.

48 points by danso 8y ago

Note: the law was passed by both legislative chambers in March, and was then signed by the governor on March 28th, to go into effect in July 2019: https://legislature.idaho.gov/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/h0118/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/h...

linuxlizard 8y ago

I'm surprised this didn't make any local news here in Idaho. And such an openness requirement seems at odds for Idaho's usual politics (cf. Idaho's Ag Gag laws).

Splendor 8y ago
The only coverage I saw was from Nathan Brown at the Idaho Press. https://www.idahopress.com/eyeonboise/bill-to-regulate-bail-algorithms-survives-but-likely-to-be/article_cc42a1ff-8c8f-5e2c-abb5-3905be3b4626.html https://www.idahopress.com/eyeonboise/bill-to-regulate-bail-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- snuxoll 8y ago
  This is why they happily get my subscription dollars every month.
anfilt 8y ago
Things happen like this when it's not a issue established by any parties yet.

bilbo0s 8y ago

>It is also the first to set requirements for public access to the design and data used to build the tool’s predictions, requiring that records created during a risk assessment tool’s development, validation, and use to “be open to public inspection, auditing, and testing.”... Now these are the kinds of laws we need! This is the sort of thing we should be doing all across the US for a lot of software being used, allegedly, "in the public interest".

sandworm101 8y ago

This is lawyer trickery. Do not think that this transparency law is meant to ensure fair justice, expect the opposite. This is the equivalent of the common "open file" rule of prosecutors. Rather than sift through and release relevant material to defendants (aka Brady material) most prosecutors just declare their files open for inspection. It is then on the defense to do the sifting, to slog through the growing pile of irrelevant material. So too with this law. Rather than properly manage the system, this is the legislature throwing its hands in the air. The burden will now be on defendants to become AI experts prior to making challenges to this system. The poor defendant seeking bail will have to point our the flaws in the code.

delinka 8y ago
You make a valid point that this places additional burdens on defense. However, I feel like such openness is still better than allowing prosecutors to cherry-pick information to provide, or "accidentally" leave out a chunk of data, or require repeated specific motions to request each detail as the defense becomes aware of it.
- mikeyouse 8y ago
  One benefit of the "old" way is that if the prosecution omits evidence, it can be grounds for an appeal. If the defense skips something, there's no grounds and they're just out of luck.
danso 8y ago
Sorry, but your analogy/comparison makes no sense. Could you provide a citation/reference to an "open file" rule that you've seen abused in such a way that it would be better to not have that rule at all? According to TFA, the Idaho state law mandates that records/data used in the design and testing of these risk assessment tools to be made public. Presumably, this information was not required to ever be disclosed upon public request. So how is "These records must be made public upon request" a net negative compared to the status quo of "The government is not required to disclose these records"?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

thedrake 8y ago

this is the exact thing that Rule Lists can do as proven by Cynthia Rudin and her team show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjxcwKN2dXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjxcwKN2dXs and https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/opening-lid-criminal-sentencing-software https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/opening-lid-criminal-sentenci... She also has an open source code for the rule lists here https://users.cs.duke.edu/~cynthia/code.html https://users.cs.duke.edu/~cynthia/code.html

ineedasername 8y ago

Isn't this rather difficult? I thought tracking back an output of something like a neural net to the salient input features was a non-trivial process.