4 ms·

What is the point? Sometimes you need software that relies on KDE and there is no alternative for it.

by slezyr 8y ago

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
yes your mileage may vary. haven't been in a situation where KDE or Gnome had something which I couldn't get done cheaper: just an idea of what happens if I were to install konqueror on a non-kde system: sudo apt-get install konqueror Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following additional packages will be installed: baloo-kf5 catdoc dolphin kactivities-bin kactivitymanagerd keditbookmarks kfind kimageformat-plugins kinit kio kio-extras kio-extras-data kpackagelauncherqml kpackagetool5 kwayland-data kwayland-integration libdbusmenu-qt5-2 libdolphinvcs5 libfam0 libhfstospell10 libkf5activities5 libkf5archive5 libkf5attica5 libkf5auth-data libkf5auth5 libkf5baloo5 libkf5balooengine5 libkf5baloowidgets-bin libkf5baloowidgets5 libkf5bookmarks-data libkf5bookmarks5 libkf5codecs-data libkf5codecs5 libkf5completion-data libkf5completion5 libkf5config-bin libkf5config-data libkf5configcore5 libkf5configgui5 libkf5configwidgets-data libkf5configwidgets5 libkf5coreaddons-data libkf5coreaddons5 libkf5crash5 libkf5dbusaddons-bin libkf5dbusaddons-data libkf5dbusaddons5 libkf5declarative-data libkf5declarative5 libkf5dnssd-data libkf5dnssd5 libkf5doctools5 libkf5filemetadata-bin libkf5filemetadata-data libkf5filemetadata3 libkf5globalaccel-bin libkf5globalaccel-data libkf5globalaccel5 libkf5globalaccelprivate5 libkf5guiaddons5 libkf5i18n-data libkf5i18n5 libkf5iconthemes-bin libkf5iconthemes-data libkf5iconthemes5 libkf5idletime5 libkf5itemviews-data libkf5itemviews5 libkf5jobwidgets-data libkf5jobwidgets5 libkf5js5 libkf5kcmutils-data libkf5kcmutils5 libkf5kdelibs4support-data libkf5kdelibs4support5 libkf5kdelibs4support5-bin libkf5khtml-bin libkf5khtml-data libkf5khtml5 libkf5kiocore5 libkf5kiofilewidgets5 libkf5kiogui5 libkf5kiontlm5 libkf5kiowidgets5 libkf5kirigami2-5 libkf5konq6 libkf5newstuff-data libkf5newstuff5 libkf5newstuffcore5 libkf5notifications-data libkf5notifications5 libkf5package-data libkf5package5 libkf5parts-data libkf5parts-plugins libkf5parts5 libkf5pty-data libkf5pty5 libkf5quickaddons5 libkf5service-bin libkf5service-data libkf5service5 libkf5solid5 libkf5solid5-data libkf5sonnet5-data libkf5sonnetcore5 libkf5sonnetui5 libkf5textwidgets-data libkf5textwidgets5 libkf5wallet-bin libkf5wallet-data libkf5wallet5 libkf5waylandclient5 libkf5widgetsaddons-data libkf5widgetsaddons5 libkf5windowsystem-data libkf5windowsystem5 libkf5xmlgui-bin libkf5xmlgui-data libkf5xmlgui5 libkwalletbackend5-5 libminizip1 libphonon4qt5-4 libpolkit-qt5-1-1 libpoppler-qt5-1 libqt5quickcontrols2-5 libqt5quicktemplates2-5 libqt5script5 libqt5texttospeech5 libqt5waylandclient5 libqt5waylandcompositor5 libqt5webengine-data libqt5webenginecore5 libqt5webenginewidgets5 libre2-5 libssh-4 libvoikko1 phonon4qt5 phonon4qt5-backend-vlc qml-module-org-kde-kirigami2 qml-module-org-kde-newstuff qml-module-qtqml-models2 qml-module-qtquick-controls2 qml-module-qtquick-templates2 qtwayland5 sonnet-plugins Suggested packages: tk | wish dolphin-plugins konq-plugins fam voikko-fi phonon4qt5-backend-gstreamer hspell The following NEW packages will be installed: baloo-kf5 catdoc dolphin kactivities-bin kactivitymanagerd keditbookmarks kfind kimageformat-plugins kinit kio kio-extras kio-extras-data konqueror kpackagelauncherqml kpackagetool5 kwayland-data kwayland-integration libdbusmenu-qt5-2 libdolphinvcs5 libfam0 libhfstospell10 libkf5activities5 libkf5archive5 libkf5attica5 libkf5auth-data libkf5auth5 libkf5baloo5 libkf5balooengine5 libkf5baloowidgets-bin libkf5baloowidgets5 libkf5bookmarks-data libkf5bookmarks5 libkf5codecs-data libkf5codecs5 libkf5completion-data libkf5completion5 libkf5config-bin libkf5config-data libkf5configcore5 libkf5configgui5 libkf5configwidgets-data libkf5configwidgets5 libkf5coreaddons-data libkf5coreaddons5 libkf5crash5 libkf5dbusaddons-bin libkf5dbusaddons-data libkf5dbusaddons5 libkf5declarative-data libkf5declarative5 libkf5dnssd-data libkf5dnssd5 libkf5doctools5 libkf5filemetadata-bin libkf5filemetadata-data libkf5filemetadata3 libkf5globalaccel-bin libkf5globalaccel-data libkf5globalaccel5 libkf5globalaccelprivate5 libkf5guiaddons5 libkf5i18n-data libkf5i18n5 libkf5iconthemes-bin libkf5iconthemes-data libkf5iconthemes5 libkf5idletime5 libkf5itemviews-data libkf5itemviews5 libkf5jobwidgets-data libkf5jobwidgets5 libkf5js5 libkf5kcmutils-data libkf5kcmutils5 libkf5kdelibs4support-data libkf5kdelibs4support5 libkf5kdelibs4support5-bin libkf5khtml-bin libkf5khtml-data libkf5khtml5 libkf5kiocore5 libkf5kiofilewidgets5 libkf5kiogui5 libkf5kiontlm5 libkf5kiowidgets5 libkf5kirigami2-5 libkf5konq6 libkf5newstuff-data libkf5newstuff5 libkf5newstuffcore5 libkf5notifications-data libkf5notifications5 libkf5package-data libkf5package5 libkf5parts-data libkf5parts-plugins libkf5parts5 libkf5pty-data libkf5pty5 libkf5quickaddons5 libkf5service-bin libkf5service-data libkf5service5 libkf5solid5 libkf5solid5-data libkf5sonnet5-data libkf5sonnetcore5 libkf5sonnetui5 libkf5textwidgets-data libkf5textwidgets5 libkf5wallet-bin libkf5wallet-data libkf5wallet5 libkf5waylandclient5 libkf5widgetsaddons-data libkf5widgetsaddons5 libkf5windowsystem-data libkf5windowsystem5 libkf5xmlgui-bin libkf5xmlgui-data libkf5xmlgui5 libkwalletbackend5-5 libminizip1 libphonon4qt5-4 libpolkit-qt5-1-1 libpoppler-qt5-1 libqt5quickcontrols2-5 libqt5quicktemplates2-5 libqt5script5 libqt5texttospeech5 libqt5waylandclient5 libqt5waylandcompositor5 libqt5webengine-data libqt5webenginecore5 libqt5webenginewidgets5 libre2-5 libssh-4 libvoikko1 phonon4qt5 phonon4qt5-backend-vlc qml-module-org-kde-kirigami2 qml-module-org-kde-newstuff qml-module-qtqml-models2 qml-module-qtquick-controls2 qml-module-qtquick-templates2 qtwayland5 sonnet-plugins 0 upgraded, 147 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 72.7 MB of archives. After this operation, 310 MB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- majewsky 8y ago
  This example is kind of unfair for two reasons: 1. Konqueror is basically the Swiss army knife of KDE. No wonder it pulls in everything and the kitchen sink. 2. You present an intimidatingly large package list to make your point, but that list is that long 'because KDE Frameworks (formerly known as kdelibs) is now deliberately packaged in a lot of tiny pieces to reduce the amount of libraries that an average application needs to pull in.
  - dalai 8y ago
    Well you can try the same with konsole. On my XFCE system it wants to install 71 packages, including stuff that a terminal emulator probably doesn't need like phonon. To be fair, this could also be due to Debian's packaging and it may well be possible to have a leaner konsole package.
    - majewsky 8y ago
      The Phonon dependency probably comes via libknotify.
  - Crinus 8y ago
    I always saw these tons of little packages as a bad idea as they make package management (from the user's perspective) harder, they do not really provide any space benefit (code is small), if anything they make loading slower (i wrote a benchmark some time ago and a binary linked against a single dynamic library with tons of exports was faster to load than a binary linked against several dynamic libraries with fewer exports - but overall the same number of imports) and AFAIK the OS wont keep the entire library in memory anyway if it isn't needed (if anything the extra housework needed to all the libraries are probably a net negative). And of course these intimidating lists. And in practice applications do not use one or two of them, they use several of them and those libraries bring in several others, etc like spaghetti (so you have Konsole relying on Phonon as mentioned in another reply).
Crinus 8y ago
If you run an application that needs the KDE (or GNOME) libs and you focus on it (e.g. an IDE, a browser, a document viewer, etc) then it doesn't matter that it uses the KDE/GNOME libs since you can consider them as part of the program itself and they'll be gone once you close the program (still take disk space but that isn't much of an issue outside of VMs). Auxiliary stuff you leave at the background (e.g. an IM or music player) tend to have multiple applications and you can always find an alternative. There are exceptions of course but they can be limited in general. And chances are you want to avoid the latter stuff for the former stuff, it isn't like RAM exists to be unused (even for file caching). In other words, if i run a heavy program as a primary task then there is even more of a reason to want auxiliary programs to be lightweight so that this program will have more resources for itself. (Also as an extra bonus, sometimes as a programmer i want the primary programs - IDE - to be lightweight themselves since i want the resources to be available for the program i am working on)

What is the point? Sometimes you need software that relies on KDE and there is no alternative for it.

by slezyr 8y ago

What is the point? Sometimes you need software that relies on KDE and there is no alternative for it.

yes your mileage may vary. haven't been in a situation where KDE or Gnome had something which I couldn't get done cheaper: just an idea of what happens if I were to install konqueror on a non-kde system: sudo apt-get install konqueror Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following additional packages will be installed: baloo-kf5 catdoc dolphin kactivities-bin kactivitymanagerd keditbookmarks kfind kimageformat-plugins kinit kio kio-extras kio-extras-data kpackagelauncherqml kpackagetool5 kwayland-data kwayland-integration libdbusmenu-qt5-2 libdolphinvcs5 libfam0 libhfstospell10 libkf5activities5 libkf5archive5 libkf5attica5 libkf5auth-data libkf5auth5 libkf5baloo5 libkf5balooengine5 libkf5baloowidgets-bin libkf5baloowidgets5 libkf5bookmarks-data libkf5bookmarks5 libkf5codecs-data libkf5codecs5 libkf5completion-data libkf5completion5 libkf5config-bin libkf5config-data libkf5configcore5 libkf5configgui5 libkf5configwidgets-data libkf5configwidgets5 libkf5coreaddons-data libkf5coreaddons5 libkf5crash5 libkf5dbusaddons-bin libkf5dbusaddons-data libkf5dbusaddons5 libkf5declarative-data libkf5declarative5 libkf5dnssd-data libkf5dnssd5 libkf5doctools5 libkf5filemetadata-bin libkf5filemetadata-data libkf5filemetadata3 libkf5globalaccel-bin libkf5globalaccel-data libkf5globalaccel5 libkf5globalaccelprivate5 libkf5guiaddons5 libkf5i18n-data libkf5i18n5 libkf5iconthemes-bin libkf5iconthemes-data libkf5iconthemes5 libkf5idletime5 libkf5itemviews-data libkf5itemviews5 libkf5jobwidgets-data libkf5jobwidgets5 libkf5js5 libkf5kcmutils-data libkf5kcmutils5 libkf5kdelibs4support-data libkf5kdelibs4support5 libkf5kdelibs4support5-bin libkf5khtml-bin libkf5khtml-data libkf5khtml5 libkf5kiocore5 libkf5kiofilewidgets5 libkf5kiogui5 libkf5kiontlm5 libkf5kiowidgets5 libkf5kirigami2-5 libkf5konq6 libkf5newstuff-data libkf5newstuff5 libkf5newstuffcore5 libkf5notifications-data libkf5notifications5 libkf5package-data libkf5package5 libkf5parts-data libkf5parts-plugins libkf5parts5 libkf5pty-data libkf5pty5 libkf5quickaddons5 libkf5service-bin libkf5service-data libkf5service5 libkf5solid5 libkf5solid5-data libkf5sonnet5-data libkf5sonnetcore5 libkf5sonnetui5 libkf5textwidgets-data libkf5textwidgets5 libkf5wallet-bin libkf5wallet-data libkf5wallet5 libkf5waylandclient5 libkf5widgetsaddons-data libkf5widgetsaddons5 libkf5windowsystem-data libkf5windowsystem5 libkf5xmlgui-bin libkf5xmlgui-data libkf5xmlgui5 libkwalletbackend5-5 libminizip1 libphonon4qt5-4 libpolkit-qt5-1-1 libpoppler-qt5-1 libqt5quickcontrols2-5 libqt5quicktemplates2-5 libqt5script5 libqt5texttospeech5 libqt5waylandclient5 libqt5waylandcompositor5 libqt5webengine-data libqt5webenginecore5 libqt5webenginewidgets5 libre2-5 libssh-4 libvoikko1 phonon4qt5 phonon4qt5-backend-vlc qml-module-org-kde-kirigami2 qml-module-org-kde-newstuff qml-module-qtqml-models2 qml-module-qtquick-controls2 qml-module-qtquick-templates2 qtwayland5 sonnet-plugins Suggested packages: tk | wish dolphin-plugins konq-plugins fam voikko-fi phonon4qt5-backend-gstreamer hspell The following NEW packages will be installed: baloo-kf5 catdoc dolphin kactivities-bin kactivitymanagerd keditbookmarks kfind kimageformat-plugins kinit kio kio-extras kio-extras-data konqueror kpackagelauncherqml kpackagetool5 kwayland-data kwayland-integration libdbusmenu-qt5-2 libdolphinvcs5 libfam0 libhfstospell10 libkf5activities5 libkf5archive5 libkf5attica5 libkf5auth-data libkf5auth5 libkf5baloo5 libkf5balooengine5 libkf5baloowidgets-bin libkf5baloowidgets5 libkf5bookmarks-data libkf5bookmarks5 libkf5codecs-data libkf5codecs5 libkf5completion-data libkf5completion5 libkf5config-bin libkf5config-data libkf5configcore5 libkf5configgui5 libkf5configwidgets-data libkf5configwidgets5 libkf5coreaddons-data libkf5coreaddons5 libkf5crash5 libkf5dbusaddons-bin libkf5dbusaddons-data libkf5dbusaddons5 libkf5declarative-data libkf5declarative5 libkf5dnssd-data libkf5dnssd5 libkf5doctools5 libkf5filemetadata-bin libkf5filemetadata-data libkf5filemetadata3 libkf5globalaccel-bin libkf5globalaccel-data libkf5globalaccel5 libkf5globalaccelprivate5 libkf5guiaddons5 libkf5i18n-data libkf5i18n5 libkf5iconthemes-bin libkf5iconthemes-data libkf5iconthemes5 libkf5idletime5 libkf5itemviews-data libkf5itemviews5 libkf5jobwidgets-data libkf5jobwidgets5 libkf5js5 libkf5kcmutils-data libkf5kcmutils5 libkf5kdelibs4support-data libkf5kdelibs4support5 libkf5kdelibs4support5-bin libkf5khtml-bin libkf5khtml-data libkf5khtml5 libkf5kiocore5 libkf5kiofilewidgets5 libkf5kiogui5 libkf5kiontlm5 libkf5kiowidgets5 libkf5kirigami2-5 libkf5konq6 libkf5newstuff-data libkf5newstuff5 libkf5newstuffcore5 libkf5notifications-data libkf5notifications5 libkf5package-data libkf5package5 libkf5parts-data libkf5parts-plugins libkf5parts5 libkf5pty-data libkf5pty5 libkf5quickaddons5 libkf5service-bin libkf5service-data libkf5service5 libkf5solid5 libkf5solid5-data libkf5sonnet5-data libkf5sonnetcore5 libkf5sonnetui5 libkf5textwidgets-data libkf5textwidgets5 libkf5wallet-bin libkf5wallet-data libkf5wallet5 libkf5waylandclient5 libkf5widgetsaddons-data libkf5widgetsaddons5 libkf5windowsystem-data libkf5windowsystem5 libkf5xmlgui-bin libkf5xmlgui-data libkf5xmlgui5 libkwalletbackend5-5 libminizip1 libphonon4qt5-4 libpolkit-qt5-1-1 libpoppler-qt5-1 libqt5quickcontrols2-5 libqt5quicktemplates2-5 libqt5script5 libqt5texttospeech5 libqt5waylandclient5 libqt5waylandcompositor5 libqt5webengine-data libqt5webenginecore5 libqt5webenginewidgets5 libre2-5 libssh-4 libvoikko1 phonon4qt5 phonon4qt5-backend-vlc qml-module-org-kde-kirigami2 qml-module-org-kde-newstuff qml-module-qtqml-models2 qml-module-qtquick-controls2 qml-module-qtquick-templates2 qtwayland5 sonnet-plugins 0 upgraded, 147 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 72.7 MB of archives. After this operation, 310 MB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
majewsky 8y ago
This example is kind of unfair for two reasons: 1. Konqueror is basically the Swiss army knife of KDE. No wonder it pulls in everything and the kitchen sink. 2. You present an intimidatingly large package list to make your point, but that list is that long 'because KDE Frameworks (formerly known as kdelibs) is now deliberately packaged in a lot of tiny pieces to reduce the amount of libraries that an average application needs to pull in.
- dalai 8y ago
  Well you can try the same with konsole. On my XFCE system it wants to install 71 packages, including stuff that a terminal emulator probably doesn't need like phonon. To be fair, this could also be due to Debian's packaging and it may well be possible to have a leaner konsole package.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    The Phonon dependency probably comes via libknotify.
- Crinus 8y ago
  I always saw these tons of little packages as a bad idea as they make package management (from the user's perspective) harder, they do not really provide any space benefit (code is small), if anything they make loading slower (i wrote a benchmark some time ago and a binary linked against a single dynamic library with tons of exports was faster to load than a binary linked against several dynamic libraries with fewer exports - but overall the same number of imports) and AFAIK the OS wont keep the entire library in memory anyway if it isn't needed (if anything the extra housework needed to all the libraries are probably a net negative). And of course these intimidating lists. And in practice applications do not use one or two of them, they use several of them and those libraries bring in several others, etc like spaghetti (so you have Konsole relying on Phonon as mentioned in another reply).

Crinus 8y ago

If you run an application that needs the KDE (or GNOME) libs and you focus on it (e.g. an IDE, a browser, a document viewer, etc) then it doesn't matter that it uses the KDE/GNOME libs since you can consider them as part of the program itself and they'll be gone once you close the program (still take disk space but that isn't much of an issue outside of VMs). Auxiliary stuff you leave at the background (e.g. an IM or music player) tend to have multiple applications and you can always find an alternative. There are exceptions of course but they can be limited in general. And chances are you want to avoid the latter stuff for the former stuff, it isn't like RAM exists to be unused (even for file caching). In other words, if i run a heavy program as a primary task then there is even more of a reason to want auxiliary programs to be lightweight so that this program will have more resources for itself. (Also as an extra bonus, sometimes as a programmer i want the primary programs - IDE - to be lightweight themselves since i want the resources to be available for the program i am working on)