5 ms·

I do wonder if we'll eventually get to the point where companies start either firing or requiring mandatory vaccines in order to work there. This would natural

I do wonder if we'll eventually get to the point where companies start either firing or requiring mandatory vaccines in order to work there. This would naturally be a fairly massive invasion of privacy, but does your right to privacy and right to not vaccinate trump the right of the company to protect their workers? Eventually it's going to come to a head and either companies will force vaccinations or the government will.

rubicon33 8y ago
I cant stand the "invasion of privacy" bull shit. You (proverbial you) invade my health by walking about with measles. I think it's well within any group, even government, to mandate vaccinations that have been PROVEN to be effective. Privacy takes a back seat to health. EDIT: And I love how this gets downvoted. Likely by people who vastly misunderstand mechanism of disease. Also likely the same people who show no courtesy to others when they are sick, and continue to frequent stores and social establishments, coughing and hacking with zero thought about it.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  I fully agree with you, particularly because not vaccinating means you're threatening the people who don't have a choice in the matter due to immune system or allergic reasons. Unfortunately that's the framing of the argument though. It's people who value privacy and self-determination over everything else, even the health and well-being of those around them.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    There's tons of things that you "do to yourself" that are controlled via legislation -- smoking is the best example. You're free to do it at home, but not in places where you can adversely impact the health of others. Your freedoms end where my rights begin, so to speak. If you don't want to get vaccinated ... don't leave home. If you want to enter a public area, you better have your shots.
- shard972 8y ago
  We are on track to complete barrel past 1984. > Hey, you should be forced to take injections in order to get a job, welfare, housing etc. So eager to throw our privacy out you don't even see that you pretty much chucked the rest out the window too.
  - TallGuyShort 8y ago
    Especially surprising since we have largely accepted that you can literally directly kill a baby on the self-determination argument. I'd be fine with that if it actually got consistently applied, but the strongest supporters of that have all sorts of other problems with self-determination.
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      Although bordering on impossible to prove, there's a case there for reckless endangerment.
  - wtallis 8y ago
    > So eager to throw our privacy out you don't even see that you pretty much chucked the rest out the window too. What privacy is lost by having a doctor attest to the fact that you've either received a vaccine or have a medically-valid reason not to?
- electriclove 8y ago
  How do you feel about kids not being able to bring PB&J sandwiches to school because of the fear some other kid might have an allergy to it?
  - peteretep 8y ago
    I feel the only way you could be against a peanut ban in schools is by: A) Thinking peanut allergies are some kind of health fad or fashionable illness B) Thinking consumption of peanuts at school is some kind of inalienable human right C) Having evidence that a peanut ban at schools doesn't reduce cases of children choking to death in front of their peers
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    I feel like if you think the fear of airborne peanut allergy is the same as universally contagious disease vectors then you are the textbook definition of an idiot.
Florin_Andrei 8y ago
"Privacy" can go stick itself where the sun don't shine, when the alternative is having the whole place crawling with two-legged bioweapons created by ignorance or stupidity.
arcticbull 8y ago
I think the work case is the weakest possible. You're not owed a job, and you're certainly not owed a specific job. The reality is that vaccinations don't just affect you. They affect people who aren't physically capable of being vaccinated (compromised immunity, allergy to vaccine, etc.). If you bring the ratio down below the herd immunity threshold, you can spread serious diseases to those not physically capable of being vaccinated and putting my existing employees at risk. If I, as an employer, am forced to decide between hiring you, an antivaxxer, which risks killing even one of my existing employees, you're not getting the job, period. I owe them a duty of care before you. And their families too. And babies too young to immunize -- is it okay if they die? This stems from a similar misunderstanding of liberty as the "freedom of speech applies to Twitter" argument. The first amendment protects you from legislation infringing on your free speech. It doesn't require private companies to broadcast your speech at your sole discretion. The same would be true of a hypothetical vaccination rule. Even if the government weren't able to legislate in this regard, nothing precludes any private party from refusing you food, a home or a job on the basis of your vaccination status. Being an antivaxxer isn't a protected class to the best of my knowledge.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Note that “anti-vaxxer” is probably a small subset of cant produce complete vaccination records. I’m not sure how acceptable a mandatory doctors exam and potentially booster shots would be to a lot of SV developers applying for a job. I don’t personally have a problem and early in my career got rejected from some jobs because of a small back problem. But can’t see it with the typical FANG applicant.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    No problem, if they don't have a record, they can take another shot. IMO FAANGs are best suited, many have their own on-site clinics. If not, you can in states like California, head down to Walgreens and get one on the house without an appointment.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
joecool1029 8y ago
> I do wonder if we'll eventually get to the point where companies start either firing or requiring mandatory vaccines in order to work there. If a college can request vaccination records I would expect an employer to also be able to. I know in the case of working at a veterinary office (or any sort of animal rehab) rabies vaccine is a workplace requirement. I think a better question is if this is deemed enough of a public health emergency (which I think it could eventually be), that the information gets shared with federal gov and the wackos get thrown on the no-fly list.
- ghaff 8y ago
  As an ardent anti-anti-vaxxer (and supporter of the California laws for schools), I'm pretty sure we want to be very careful about how far we want to go down the path of provide a complete set of vaccination records (or a validated medical exemption) or you get a big A tattooed on your forehead (or digital equivalent) and aren't allowed to be employed or to travel.
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    >I'm pretty sure we want to be very careful about how far we want to go down the path of provide a complete set of vaccination records Ok, let's move the path upstream then. If you want a passport and/or a driver's license renewal, you need to provide a vaccination record or a valid medical exemption. These are travel documents and I personally wouldn't want to sit next to a measles infested traveler on a plane. The problem will resolve itself in some years as credentials expire.
dan-robertson 8y ago
Plenty of institutions require vaccinations. The military typically does. Often one needs certain vaccines to obtain permission to travel to certain places. When I went to university (UK) I had to produce vaccination records (and I think I had to redo one because the records couldn’t be found), although I don’t recall reading what would happen if I hadn’t had the usual course of vaccinations. I think working in a hospital requires this (although I’ve heard stories of evidence being faked in some US hospitals) and yearly flu vaccinations are very strongly encouraged if not required (this is to stop staff from infecting patients more than the other way round), and a large proportion of the population works in healthcare.

rubicon33 8y ago

I cant stand the "invasion of privacy" bull shit. You (proverbial you) invade my health by walking about with measles. I think it's well within any group, even government, to mandate vaccinations that have been PROVEN to be effective. Privacy takes a back seat to health. EDIT: And I love how this gets downvoted. Likely by people who vastly misunderstand mechanism of disease. Also likely the same people who show no courtesy to others when they are sick, and continue to frequent stores and social establishments, coughing and hacking with zero thought about it.

fzeroracer 8y ago
I fully agree with you, particularly because not vaccinating means you're threatening the people who don't have a choice in the matter due to immune system or allergic reasons. Unfortunately that's the framing of the argument though. It's people who value privacy and self-determination over everything else, even the health and well-being of those around them.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  There's tons of things that you "do to yourself" that are controlled via legislation -- smoking is the best example. You're free to do it at home, but not in places where you can adversely impact the health of others. Your freedoms end where my rights begin, so to speak. If you don't want to get vaccinated ... don't leave home. If you want to enter a public area, you better have your shots.
shard972 8y ago
We are on track to complete barrel past 1984. > Hey, you should be forced to take injections in order to get a job, welfare, housing etc. So eager to throw our privacy out you don't even see that you pretty much chucked the rest out the window too.
- TallGuyShort 8y ago
  Especially surprising since we have largely accepted that you can literally directly kill a baby on the self-determination argument. I'd be fine with that if it actually got consistently applied, but the strongest supporters of that have all sorts of other problems with self-determination.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    Although bordering on impossible to prove, there's a case there for reckless endangerment.
- wtallis 8y ago
  > So eager to throw our privacy out you don't even see that you pretty much chucked the rest out the window too. What privacy is lost by having a doctor attest to the fact that you've either received a vaccine or have a medically-valid reason not to?
electriclove 8y ago
How do you feel about kids not being able to bring PB&J sandwiches to school because of the fear some other kid might have an allergy to it?
- peteretep 8y ago
  I feel the only way you could be against a peanut ban in schools is by: A) Thinking peanut allergies are some kind of health fad or fashionable illness B) Thinking consumption of peanuts at school is some kind of inalienable human right C) Having evidence that a peanut ban at schools doesn't reduce cases of children choking to death in front of their peers
- rubicon33 8y ago
  I feel like if you think the fear of airborne peanut allergy is the same as universally contagious disease vectors then you are the textbook definition of an idiot.

Florin_Andrei 8y ago

"Privacy" can go stick itself where the sun don't shine, when the alternative is having the whole place crawling with two-legged bioweapons created by ignorance or stupidity.

arcticbull 8y ago

I think the work case is the weakest possible. You're not owed a job, and you're certainly not owed a specific job. The reality is that vaccinations don't just affect you. They affect people who aren't physically capable of being vaccinated (compromised immunity, allergy to vaccine, etc.). If you bring the ratio down below the herd immunity threshold, you can spread serious diseases to those not physically capable of being vaccinated and putting my existing employees at risk. If I, as an employer, am forced to decide between hiring you, an antivaxxer, which risks killing even one of my existing employees, you're not getting the job, period. I owe them a duty of care before you. And their families too. And babies too young to immunize -- is it okay if they die? This stems from a similar misunderstanding of liberty as the "freedom of speech applies to Twitter" argument. The first amendment protects you from legislation infringing on your free speech. It doesn't require private companies to broadcast your speech at your sole discretion. The same would be true of a hypothetical vaccination rule. Even if the government weren't able to legislate in this regard, nothing precludes any private party from refusing you food, a home or a job on the basis of your vaccination status. Being an antivaxxer isn't a protected class to the best of my knowledge.

ghaff 8y ago
Note that “anti-vaxxer” is probably a small subset of cant produce complete vaccination records. I’m not sure how acceptable a mandatory doctors exam and potentially booster shots would be to a lot of SV developers applying for a job. I don’t personally have a problem and early in my career got rejected from some jobs because of a small back problem. But can’t see it with the typical FANG applicant.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  No problem, if they don't have a record, they can take another shot. IMO FAANGs are best suited, many have their own on-site clinics. If not, you can in states like California, head down to Walgreens and get one on the house without an appointment.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago

joecool1029 8y ago

> I do wonder if we'll eventually get to the point where companies start either firing or requiring mandatory vaccines in order to work there. If a college can request vaccination records I would expect an employer to also be able to. I know in the case of working at a veterinary office (or any sort of animal rehab) rabies vaccine is a workplace requirement. I think a better question is if this is deemed enough of a public health emergency (which I think it could eventually be), that the information gets shared with federal gov and the wackos get thrown on the no-fly list.

ghaff 8y ago
As an ardent anti-anti-vaxxer (and supporter of the California laws for schools), I'm pretty sure we want to be very careful about how far we want to go down the path of provide a complete set of vaccination records (or a validated medical exemption) or you get a big A tattooed on your forehead (or digital equivalent) and aren't allowed to be employed or to travel.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  >I'm pretty sure we want to be very careful about how far we want to go down the path of provide a complete set of vaccination records Ok, let's move the path upstream then. If you want a passport and/or a driver's license renewal, you need to provide a vaccination record or a valid medical exemption. These are travel documents and I personally wouldn't want to sit next to a measles infested traveler on a plane. The problem will resolve itself in some years as credentials expire.

dan-robertson 8y ago

Plenty of institutions require vaccinations. The military typically does. Often one needs certain vaccines to obtain permission to travel to certain places. When I went to university (UK) I had to produce vaccination records (and I think I had to redo one because the records couldn’t be found), although I don’t recall reading what would happen if I hadn’t had the usual course of vaccinations. I think working in a hospital requires this (although I’ve heard stories of evidence being faked in some US hospitals) and yearly flu vaccinations are very strongly encouraged if not required (this is to stop staff from infecting patients more than the other way round), and a large proportion of the population works in healthcare.