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AFAICT this has descended into semantics at this point. The difference between "blind faith" and what the Catholic church would call "reasoned faith" doesn't s

AFAICT this has descended into semantics at this point. The difference between "blind faith" and what the Catholic church would call "reasoned faith" doesn't seem at all relevant if one doesn't accept (logically sound) arguments where there is no demonstrable reason to accept the premises of said argument... is it? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying? EDIT: To me it's a bit like arguing from a premise of "the Bible is 100% true and infallible". Well that can't be a valid premise because there are contradictory passages... and, anyway, it wasn't written directly by God, so there is already at least 1 layer of interpretation going on. I mean, I can accept that if you believe the premise then you wouldn't want to wear clothes made of mixed fibers, but that's neither here nor there. Likewise, you could argue as long as you like about how many angels fit on the head of a pin, but I don't accept the premise that angels (as described in the bible) exist, so...

astine 8y ago
Well, if you don't believe in the Catholic religion it would be hard to argue that one should assent to its teachings. But Catholics really do believe that their beliefs should be subject to reason. They wouldn't necessarily agree with reasons why their beliefs are wrong, but they would believe that faith must be in accordance with reason. As to why the specific teachings of the Catholic church? It literally comes down to "God said so and God wouldn't lie." "We may point out in this connexion the falsity of the prevalent notion that faith is blind. "We believe", says the Vatican Council (III, iii), "that revelation is true, not indeed because the intrinsic truth of the mysteries is clearly seen by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Who reveals them, for He can neither deceive nor be deceived." Thus, to return to the act of faith which we make in the Holy Trinity, we may formulate it in syllogistic fashion thus: Whatever God reveals is true but God has revealed the mystery of the Holy Trinity therefore this mystery is true." [1] As to the reasons why Catholics believe that one should place one's trust in God, these have to do with a variety of purely rational, if not always convincing arguments. Catholics believe that the existence of God can be proved with reason. "'that God, the first cause (principium) and last end of all things, can, from created things, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason' (Denz., 1785-old no. 1634) and in the corresponding canon (can. i, De revelat.) it anathematizes anyone who would say 'that the one true God our Creator and Lord, cannot, through the things that are made, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason (Denz., 1806-old no. 1653)." [2] Catholics would not argue that you can logically deduce every tenant of their faith through reason alone, but they do believe that through reason, one can deduce enough to decide to place faith in truth of the religion and then chose to follow the rest of the beliefs. 1. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm 2. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm
- ajuc 8y ago
  > As to why the specific teachings of the Catholic church? It literally comes down to "God said so and God wouldn't lie." How do you know god said so? How do you know there even is a god? How do you know god wouldn't lie? You assumed it (in one way or another). Blind faith. BTW, regarding the whole "god doesn't lie" thing: > O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. Jeremiah 20:7 > And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. Ezekiel 14:9 > And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 But Bible is full of contradictions, it's not like anybody can be persuaded by pointing them out. Faith doesn't care about contradictions :) > these have to do with a variety of purely rational, if not always convincing arguments. Arguments using circular reasoning are indeed not very convincing :) > that God, the first cause (principium) and last end of all things, can, from created things, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason There's no way to deduce anything about the first cause. Not the fact that it would also necessarily be the end of all things. Not that it was something conscious with a free will. Much less again that it was a personal god. Much less still that it was the God as Catholics define him. And it's perfectly possible that there was no first cause at all (the chain of causes could be infinite for all we know). > Catholics believe that the existence of God can be proved with reason. And that's blind faith, because they can't actually prove it, they just declare it's possible. You're arguing my point for me here ;)
  - foldr 8y ago
    Again, you're confusing blind faith with belief on the basis of an argument that you think is bad. We know that you are not convinced by any arguments for the existence of God. But believing that God exists on the basis of a rational argument isn't blind faith.
    - ajuc 8y ago
      You cannot turn irrational belief into rational one just by making a flawed argument about it. Belief: "Earth is flat" Argument: "If earth was flat it would look flat. Earth looks flat therefore it must be flat." It's no longer faith, it's reason now. Doesn't matter that you ignore all the counterarguments.

astine 8y ago

Well, if you don't believe in the Catholic religion it would be hard to argue that one should assent to its teachings. But Catholics really do believe that their beliefs should be subject to reason. They wouldn't necessarily agree with reasons why their beliefs are wrong, but they would believe that faith must be in accordance with reason. As to why the specific teachings of the Catholic church? It literally comes down to "God said so and God wouldn't lie." "We may point out in this connexion the falsity of the prevalent notion that faith is blind. "We believe", says the Vatican Council (III, iii), "that revelation is true, not indeed because the intrinsic truth of the mysteries is clearly seen by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Who reveals them, for He can neither deceive nor be deceived." Thus, to return to the act of faith which we make in the Holy Trinity, we may formulate it in syllogistic fashion thus: Whatever God reveals is true but God has revealed the mystery of the Holy Trinity therefore this mystery is true." [1] As to the reasons why Catholics believe that one should place one's trust in God, these have to do with a variety of purely rational, if not always convincing arguments. Catholics believe that the existence of God can be proved with reason. "'that God, the first cause (principium) and last end of all things, can, from created things, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason' (Denz., 1785-old no. 1634) and in the corresponding canon (can. i, De revelat.) it anathematizes anyone who would say 'that the one true God our Creator and Lord, cannot, through the things that are made, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason (Denz., 1806-old no. 1653)." [2] Catholics would not argue that you can logically deduce every tenant of their faith through reason alone, but they do believe that through reason, one can deduce enough to decide to place faith in truth of the religion and then chose to follow the rest of the beliefs. 1. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm 2. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm

ajuc 8y ago
> As to why the specific teachings of the Catholic church? It literally comes down to "God said so and God wouldn't lie." How do you know god said so? How do you know there even is a god? How do you know god wouldn't lie? You assumed it (in one way or another). Blind faith. BTW, regarding the whole "god doesn't lie" thing: > O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. Jeremiah 20:7 > And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. Ezekiel 14:9 > And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 But Bible is full of contradictions, it's not like anybody can be persuaded by pointing them out. Faith doesn't care about contradictions :) > these have to do with a variety of purely rational, if not always convincing arguments. Arguments using circular reasoning are indeed not very convincing :) > that God, the first cause (principium) and last end of all things, can, from created things, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason There's no way to deduce anything about the first cause. Not the fact that it would also necessarily be the end of all things. Not that it was something conscious with a free will. Much less again that it was a personal god. Much less still that it was the God as Catholics define him. And it's perfectly possible that there was no first cause at all (the chain of causes could be infinite for all we know). > Catholics believe that the existence of God can be proved with reason. And that's blind faith, because they can't actually prove it, they just declare it's possible. You're arguing my point for me here ;)
- foldr 8y ago
  Again, you're confusing blind faith with belief on the basis of an argument that you think is bad. We know that you are not convinced by any arguments for the existence of God. But believing that God exists on the basis of a rational argument isn't blind faith.
  - ajuc 8y ago
    You cannot turn irrational belief into rational one just by making a flawed argument about it. Belief: "Earth is flat" Argument: "If earth was flat it would look flat. Earth looks flat therefore it must be flat." It's no longer faith, it's reason now. Doesn't matter that you ignore all the counterarguments.