4 ms·

Something tells me that college is not where this class belongs.

by troyvit 8y ago

java-man 8y ago
you are right, we need to teach our kids about bullshit much earlier.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  We all keep saying that. So how do we get the ball rolling?
  - scottie_m 8y ago
    Convince parents that teaching kids to think critically is more important than indoctrinating said child into whichever religion or political sphere the parent is already a part of. In my experience that’s a broadly impossible task. Parents want their kids to think critically only about the things the parent already rejects.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Kids that think critically are less susceptible to lazy parenting. Nobody wants to explain to their 5yo why they can't afford a Barbie Jeep but can afford booze or going out to eat. Nobody wants a teenager that is well versed in assessing the goals and motivation of all the parties in any given situation because they'll recognize all the partial truths they get fed in an attempt to make them to take risks in a manner more like an adult. A teenager that understands statistics well would be impossible to scare into not doing "bad things". Likewise thinking critically is not a high priority thing for parents to teach. When you're dealing with someone who can't think on the same level as you lying is just so damn easy. They are playing checkers. You are playing seven dimensional chess. Teaching kids to think critically requires a constant effort and directly negatively impacts the parents in the short term. It's like quitting smoking for 18yr, no wonder most people don't do it.
      - scottie_m 8y ago
        Honestly I never considered that angle, but I have to agree. I’ve always focused on grander aspects of it, but of course the small everyday lies and manipulations would be more central.
  - Faramir4k 8y ago
    Classes on Persuasion, and the way it dominates our way of life is a great start.
    - wccrawford 8y ago
      I have to agree. Learning how to persuade people has been great for learning how to spot people trying to persuade me, and what their goal is.
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ Middle schools and parents would protest, though. Know why? Many of these invalidate aspects of religion.
  - java-man 8y ago
    First, we, as parents, have to learn to think critically ourselves. This is no easy task because, generally, nobody taught us that, and also because one needs some level of education and/or basic understanding of how the world works in general. Then, start asking questions: can we trust the information we receive? Is it possible we receive a biased/incomplete/wrong information? Are we being manipulated? Who would benefit from supplying us with incorrect information? correct information? How can we verify the information? Look at the history. What can we learn from historical events? Have we been lied to in the past? How did we learn that we've been lied to? Who benefitted?
- 49para 8y ago
  but then they might not go to college at all.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
As someone who has the "enlightening" experience of getting his high-school education in multiple states and took note of the "inconveniences" in history and science that each state chose not to focus on or downplay I assure you that an education system that at the end of the day answers to government is not going to eagerly teach the population how to detect bullshit.
monksy 8y ago
This is absolutely reasonable for a university level class. It would go over: 1. Rhetoric 2. Historical methods of propaganda 3. How propaganda spreads 4. "Virality in communication networks" (https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Produc...) 5. Gossip 6. Tactics of Manipulation (48 laws of power is a good recording of this) 7. Strategizing on cognitive basis.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  Or you could just teach them the most popular informal logical fallacies, which would cover most of this already https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ Unfortunately there are a lot of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies Fortunately, when given concrete examples, I believe most people can grasp most of them, and it would inoculate ALL of us to quite a bit of the BS flying about. I’ve been studying these on my own for a while and once you learn some of them well enough, you cannot unsee them- they are used EVERYWHERE

Something tells me that college is not where this class belongs.

java-man 8y ago

you are right, we need to teach our kids about bullshit much earlier.

ravenstine 8y ago
We all keep saying that. So how do we get the ball rolling?
- scottie_m 8y ago
  Convince parents that teaching kids to think critically is more important than indoctrinating said child into whichever religion or political sphere the parent is already a part of. In my experience that’s a broadly impossible task. Parents want their kids to think critically only about the things the parent already rejects.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Kids that think critically are less susceptible to lazy parenting. Nobody wants to explain to their 5yo why they can't afford a Barbie Jeep but can afford booze or going out to eat. Nobody wants a teenager that is well versed in assessing the goals and motivation of all the parties in any given situation because they'll recognize all the partial truths they get fed in an attempt to make them to take risks in a manner more like an adult. A teenager that understands statistics well would be impossible to scare into not doing "bad things". Likewise thinking critically is not a high priority thing for parents to teach. When you're dealing with someone who can't think on the same level as you lying is just so damn easy. They are playing checkers. You are playing seven dimensional chess. Teaching kids to think critically requires a constant effort and directly negatively impacts the parents in the short term. It's like quitting smoking for 18yr, no wonder most people don't do it.
    - scottie_m 8y ago
      Honestly I never considered that angle, but I have to agree. I’ve always focused on grander aspects of it, but of course the small everyday lies and manipulations would be more central.
- Faramir4k 8y ago
  Classes on Persuasion, and the way it dominates our way of life is a great start.
  - wccrawford 8y ago
    I have to agree. Learning how to persuade people has been great for learning how to spot people trying to persuade me, and what their goal is.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ Middle schools and parents would protest, though. Know why? Many of these invalidate aspects of religion.
- java-man 8y ago
  First, we, as parents, have to learn to think critically ourselves. This is no easy task because, generally, nobody taught us that, and also because one needs some level of education and/or basic understanding of how the world works in general. Then, start asking questions: can we trust the information we receive? Is it possible we receive a biased/incomplete/wrong information? Are we being manipulated? Who would benefit from supplying us with incorrect information? correct information? How can we verify the information? Look at the history. What can we learn from historical events? Have we been lied to in the past? How did we learn that we've been lied to? Who benefitted?
49para 8y ago
but then they might not go to college at all.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

As someone who has the "enlightening" experience of getting his high-school education in multiple states and took note of the "inconveniences" in history and science that each state chose not to focus on or downplay I assure you that an education system that at the end of the day answers to government is not going to eagerly teach the population how to detect bullshit.

monksy 8y ago

This is absolutely reasonable for a university level class. It would go over: 1. Rhetoric 2. Historical methods of propaganda 3. How propaganda spreads 4. "Virality in communication networks" (https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Produc...) 5. Gossip 6. Tactics of Manipulation (48 laws of power is a good recording of this) 7. Strategizing on cognitive basis.

pmarreck 8y ago
Or you could just teach them the most popular informal logical fallacies, which would cover most of this already https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ Unfortunately there are a lot of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies Fortunately, when given concrete examples, I believe most people can grasp most of them, and it would inoculate ALL of us to quite a bit of the BS flying about. I’ve been studying these on my own for a while and once you learn some of them well enough, you cannot unsee them- they are used EVERYWHERE