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Christians have been growing as a movement nearly uninterrupted for 2 millenia. So much for the religious always losing. What I've seen consistently is the ab

Christians have been growing as a movement nearly uninterrupted for 2 millenia. So much for the religious always losing. What I've seen consistently is the ability of the secular to debate and convert is trumped by the ability of the religious to reproduce. Church attendence is going up in many western countries driven by immigration. Religion does follow a belief structure that differs from logic but it sure as shit is a robust and resilent belief system.

TimTheTinker 7y ago
> the ability of the secular to debate and convert is trumped by the ability of the religious to reproduce. Perhaps that’s true in a global sense, but that doesn’t mean Christianity is devoid of individuals who can clearly and logically defend their position in debate against secularists and atheists. William Lane Craig comes to mind, among several others. You might not like listening to him, but he certainly doesn’t rest his case on an assumed moral authority or any other fallacious logical grounds.
- TheOperator 7y ago
  I'm not saying Christians are dumb but atheist > christian conversions aren't as common as christian > atheists. They aren't the greatest at converting people.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    Atheism is merely the current world zeitgeist. In a while, maybe a century, it’ll be something else. There have always been people who were “Christians” but who eventually left. The apostle John even wrote about it happening in the 1st century —- so it’s nothing new. What matters is whether it’s objectively true. Christians may be failing in certain ways at evangelism, but as scripture says, “The natural man does not understand the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned.”
saiya-jin 7y ago
Do you have some numbers to back this up? Everywhere in the west I look, christianity is losing grounds. People practice less, they still have the belief on the paper but don't go to church, don't pray, baptize kids only due to pressure from older generations etc. Most I know come up with their own version of religion based on christianity - picking up what they like, ignoring rest. Which is a sane and fine solution and practically transition to agnosticism over few generations, but it sure ain't the same christianity branch they claim to adhere to. It could be still adding numbers due to remote missionaries wiping out local religions and overall increasing numbers (I sure as hell hope not), but I can't imagine this trend in western democracies. Immigration you mention should be 0-sum game - yes more immigrants in their new home country go into church, but they left their home country. Other religions, especially islam might be another story.
- CelestialTeapot 7y ago
  In the US, the fastest growing religion is None-of-the-above [1]. Now, that's not to say that people have given up magical thinking and have embraced reality. They still might believe false things. But at the very least, on some level they've realized that (organized) religion and its dogma is poisonous. 1) http://elm.washcoll.edu/index.php/2018/11/fastest-growing-religion-is-none-as-people-depart-from-religious-institutions/ http://elm.washcoll.edu/index.php/2018/11/fastest-growing-re...
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    > magical thinking Christianity’s main claims revolve around agreeing eyewitness accounts from hundreds of people, set against a backdrop of people in power who had the motivation and opportunity to disprove them if they could (but who opted to kill them instead). You may say those people were lying or call them delusional, but my choice to believe them hardly qualifies as magical thinking. And that could easily be lobbed the other direction. To think that a universe, its physical laws, and everything in it can come from nothing might just as well be called magical thinking. It might be more helpful to engage the worldview and its arguments than use dismissive phrases.

TimTheTinker 7y ago

> the ability of the secular to debate and convert is trumped by the ability of the religious to reproduce. Perhaps that’s true in a global sense, but that doesn’t mean Christianity is devoid of individuals who can clearly and logically defend their position in debate against secularists and atheists. William Lane Craig comes to mind, among several others. You might not like listening to him, but he certainly doesn’t rest his case on an assumed moral authority or any other fallacious logical grounds.

TheOperator 7y ago
I'm not saying Christians are dumb but atheist > christian conversions aren't as common as christian > atheists. They aren't the greatest at converting people.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  Atheism is merely the current world zeitgeist. In a while, maybe a century, it’ll be something else. There have always been people who were “Christians” but who eventually left. The apostle John even wrote about it happening in the 1st century —- so it’s nothing new. What matters is whether it’s objectively true. Christians may be failing in certain ways at evangelism, but as scripture says, “The natural man does not understand the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned.”

saiya-jin 7y ago

Do you have some numbers to back this up? Everywhere in the west I look, christianity is losing grounds. People practice less, they still have the belief on the paper but don't go to church, don't pray, baptize kids only due to pressure from older generations etc. Most I know come up with their own version of religion based on christianity - picking up what they like, ignoring rest. Which is a sane and fine solution and practically transition to agnosticism over few generations, but it sure ain't the same christianity branch they claim to adhere to. It could be still adding numbers due to remote missionaries wiping out local religions and overall increasing numbers (I sure as hell hope not), but I can't imagine this trend in western democracies. Immigration you mention should be 0-sum game - yes more immigrants in their new home country go into church, but they left their home country. Other religions, especially islam might be another story.

CelestialTeapot 7y ago
In the US, the fastest growing religion is None-of-the-above [1]. Now, that's not to say that people have given up magical thinking and have embraced reality. They still might believe false things. But at the very least, on some level they've realized that (organized) religion and its dogma is poisonous. 1) http://elm.washcoll.edu/index.php/2018/11/fastest-growing-religion-is-none-as-people-depart-from-religious-institutions/ http://elm.washcoll.edu/index.php/2018/11/fastest-growing-re...
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  > magical thinking Christianity’s main claims revolve around agreeing eyewitness accounts from hundreds of people, set against a backdrop of people in power who had the motivation and opportunity to disprove them if they could (but who opted to kill them instead). You may say those people were lying or call them delusional, but my choice to believe them hardly qualifies as magical thinking. And that could easily be lobbed the other direction. To think that a universe, its physical laws, and everything in it can come from nothing might just as well be called magical thinking. It might be more helpful to engage the worldview and its arguments than use dismissive phrases.