5 ms·

Supervised injection sites don't seem like the obvious answer to me. Legalize the use of drugs, sure. Provide needle exchange programs to prevent the spread of

Supervised injection sites don't seem like the obvious answer to me. Legalize the use of drugs, sure. Provide needle exchange programs to prevent the spread of disease, maybe. But I don't know that we need to pay to provide space and staff for people to use heroin. We should draw the line in indulging people's bad habits somewhere. It isn't reasonable to shoot up in a public bathroom even if a city doesn't provide supervised injection sites any more than it is reasonable to have sex in the street if a city doesn't provide free love hotels. At some point antisocial behavior is and ought to be considered criminal.

netsharc 8y ago
I talked to a doctor once who said Amsterdam does what you think is "over the line", they even supplied the drugs. It's probably cheaper than "cleaning up" after the druggies, and also for the police resources needed to prevent crimes. And she said some druggies even quit, because they lost the thrill: when it was illegal and they had to do crimes to get money to buy their next hit, it was thrilling, but when all they did was go to the injection site, get high, and then go home again, some of them realized "my life needs more meaning than this". Also, since they're not busy burglarizing homes to get money to buy drugs, they could also be employed for tasks like street cleaning.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  Do you know when this policy was put in place? I was in Amsterdam about 15 years ago and it reminded me of San Francisco today. The train station and surrounding area was especially terrible. So I'm a little skeptical of this story.
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    Don't know current Amsterdam situation, but we have a shooting place in Geneva, Switzerland and it works. I mean really works. Streets are cleaner, drug crime is lower. Its not a magical solution to every single problem out there obviously. I think many people have issue accepting that drug addicts are part of society. Criminalize them, and the whole underworld evolves but it won't affect their numbers much. Put death sentence on drug use, and there will still be healthy population of addicts. So with your 'drawing line' approach and misleaded comparison to sex trade, you just give ammo fodder for far right-wing populist politics, polarizing society and law enforcement, increasing crime and making it more organized, while achieving very little positive impact. Something like famous US screw-up called War on drugs.
  - jerven 8y ago
    The original policy has been in place since the 90s, and like the Portuguese and Swiss equivalent experience it drastically reduced the extremes of drug addiction. The difference in the swiss city of Geneva at the central station in the late 80s and early 90s is hell and heaven. While it does not solve all problems the methadone heroin replacement system does solve the vast majority of negative issues. Petty crime and robbery dropped significantly, whores for drugs disappeared, needle reuse is non existent. And in the 80s I was warned with reason to look out for drug needles and not touch them. This is not a worry anymore, either in the Netherlands or Switzerland. Both Amsterdam and Geneva suffer these days from organized street crime. But the risk of being attacked by a junky for your wallet is minimal. Organized street crime prefers to steal from you without you noticing and are quite skillful. Junkies needing money for a hit are more like dogs with rabies. The remaining junkies are rather fragile and slow, and not dangerous as long as they get their regular hit. Which they do in a safe and controlled environment. Having been to San Fransisco and Amsterdam these are no longer comparable at all. 25 years ago I can believe but 15 years, no.
- Pigo 8y ago
  I don't buy that at all. No one continues to use drugs because it's a thrill, or it's fun to shoplift and commit crimes. They continue to use because they're addicted. I don't believe there is an easy solution for this problem, but just letting them go at it with their drugs is apathy. It's work and expensive to deal with addicts, and I think people just don't care enough to step in anymore.
  - theluketaylor 8y ago
    These sites are not the equivalent of the brown paper bag for open alcohol where everyone tacitly agrees to look the other way. Properly planned supervised safe consumption sites are staffed to prevent overdoses, but also to offer basic addiction treatment. They serve as the intake point to a much larger system of treatment. Staff develop relationships with addicts that allow long term encouragement of treatment and safer behaviour. Far from apathy, properly supported safe consumption sites are one of the most engaged, active treatment programs available and numerous studies have shown significant harm reduction. Of course, if the goal is to just get addicts off the street it will fail horribly. Properly designed as the first rung of a much larger support system they can have remarkable success. In my city people are clamouring so hard to get a safe consumption site just this week a dispute over where to host it was dropped out of fear we wouldn't get a site up and running at all. The mayor and some councillors wanted to use an empty lot along a major street on the edge of downtown, but that would require building a facility and all necessary funding hadn't been secured. Everyone on the ground involved in fighting homelessness and addiction wanted another location which has been vacant for a while. It's not too far from city hall and in a much more walkable location, but that places in near some other community centres. This location could be up and running in just a few months from the word go. Community leaders organized to convinced the mayor (who to his credit changed his mind) that approving an unfunded site risked not having a safe consumption at all. Every single person opposed to the more central location does want a safe injection site and also agreed to drop their opposition to the central site. Long term the best location may be the empty lot, but everyone involved didn't let perfect be the enemy of good. I've never been prouder to live in this city
    - 8y ago
CathedralBorrow 8y ago
Do you see a heroin addict as a person suffering from addiction, or more of an irresponsible person indulging in a bad habit?
- hycaria 8y ago
  Is addiction an excuse for everything now and not simply the compulsive use of prohibited substances like it used to be ?
  - CathedralBorrow 8y ago
    I don't think I mentioned 'everything' in my comment. I was talking about heroin. What do you think compels heroin users to keep using it?
    - hycaria 8y ago
      There are many other ways to do heroin than on a busy pavement, next to your own pile of feces or in a state subsidized room. Addiction is terrible but it's not an excuse to mess up everything for others. Poster is not blaming substance use there.
    - testpostpls 8y ago
      Heroin feels pretty great.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  Why not both? There are addicts that live quiet unobtrusive lives and there are addicts that make everyone around them—-entire cities worth of people—-miserable. The existence of the former mean the latter don’t get off with “I’m an addict, it’s not my fault”. What we are suffering from is not merely the existence of addicts but the tolerance of addicts that choose to indulge in wantonly antisocial behavior.
  - CathedralBorrow 8y ago
    I agree that addicts can certainly be irresponsible people, just like non-addicts can be. But to your point, do you believe the solution is to arrest more drug users? Is that what you mean by tolerance of addicts?
Pigo 8y ago
It feels like apathy to me. It's a lot of effort and money to deal with individual drug problems. People end up on the street with their addiction after their family and friends fail to get them to face reality. Maybe there's some benefits, or savings, to letting people continue to kill themselves, but you can't kid yourself that you're doing them a favor. You do addicts a favor by not throwing up your hands. I'm open to legalization or anything that minimizes damage, but unfortunately most people don't seek help until they've hit some kind of bottom. It's a complicated issue, and just making it easier for them to use seems as simplistic as "just say no".

netsharc 8y ago

I talked to a doctor once who said Amsterdam does what you think is "over the line", they even supplied the drugs. It's probably cheaper than "cleaning up" after the druggies, and also for the police resources needed to prevent crimes. And she said some druggies even quit, because they lost the thrill: when it was illegal and they had to do crimes to get money to buy their next hit, it was thrilling, but when all they did was go to the injection site, get high, and then go home again, some of them realized "my life needs more meaning than this". Also, since they're not busy burglarizing homes to get money to buy drugs, they could also be employed for tasks like street cleaning.

bradleyjg 8y ago
Do you know when this policy was put in place? I was in Amsterdam about 15 years ago and it reminded me of San Francisco today. The train station and surrounding area was especially terrible. So I'm a little skeptical of this story.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Don't know current Amsterdam situation, but we have a shooting place in Geneva, Switzerland and it works. I mean really works. Streets are cleaner, drug crime is lower. Its not a magical solution to every single problem out there obviously. I think many people have issue accepting that drug addicts are part of society. Criminalize them, and the whole underworld evolves but it won't affect their numbers much. Put death sentence on drug use, and there will still be healthy population of addicts. So with your 'drawing line' approach and misleaded comparison to sex trade, you just give ammo fodder for far right-wing populist politics, polarizing society and law enforcement, increasing crime and making it more organized, while achieving very little positive impact. Something like famous US screw-up called War on drugs.
- jerven 8y ago
  The original policy has been in place since the 90s, and like the Portuguese and Swiss equivalent experience it drastically reduced the extremes of drug addiction. The difference in the swiss city of Geneva at the central station in the late 80s and early 90s is hell and heaven. While it does not solve all problems the methadone heroin replacement system does solve the vast majority of negative issues. Petty crime and robbery dropped significantly, whores for drugs disappeared, needle reuse is non existent. And in the 80s I was warned with reason to look out for drug needles and not touch them. This is not a worry anymore, either in the Netherlands or Switzerland. Both Amsterdam and Geneva suffer these days from organized street crime. But the risk of being attacked by a junky for your wallet is minimal. Organized street crime prefers to steal from you without you noticing and are quite skillful. Junkies needing money for a hit are more like dogs with rabies. The remaining junkies are rather fragile and slow, and not dangerous as long as they get their regular hit. Which they do in a safe and controlled environment. Having been to San Fransisco and Amsterdam these are no longer comparable at all. 25 years ago I can believe but 15 years, no.
Pigo 8y ago
I don't buy that at all. No one continues to use drugs because it's a thrill, or it's fun to shoplift and commit crimes. They continue to use because they're addicted. I don't believe there is an easy solution for this problem, but just letting them go at it with their drugs is apathy. It's work and expensive to deal with addicts, and I think people just don't care enough to step in anymore.
- theluketaylor 8y ago
  These sites are not the equivalent of the brown paper bag for open alcohol where everyone tacitly agrees to look the other way. Properly planned supervised safe consumption sites are staffed to prevent overdoses, but also to offer basic addiction treatment. They serve as the intake point to a much larger system of treatment. Staff develop relationships with addicts that allow long term encouragement of treatment and safer behaviour. Far from apathy, properly supported safe consumption sites are one of the most engaged, active treatment programs available and numerous studies have shown significant harm reduction. Of course, if the goal is to just get addicts off the street it will fail horribly. Properly designed as the first rung of a much larger support system they can have remarkable success. In my city people are clamouring so hard to get a safe consumption site just this week a dispute over where to host it was dropped out of fear we wouldn't get a site up and running at all. The mayor and some councillors wanted to use an empty lot along a major street on the edge of downtown, but that would require building a facility and all necessary funding hadn't been secured. Everyone on the ground involved in fighting homelessness and addiction wanted another location which has been vacant for a while. It's not too far from city hall and in a much more walkable location, but that places in near some other community centres. This location could be up and running in just a few months from the word go. Community leaders organized to convinced the mayor (who to his credit changed his mind) that approving an unfunded site risked not having a safe consumption at all. Every single person opposed to the more central location does want a safe injection site and also agreed to drop their opposition to the central site. Long term the best location may be the empty lot, but everyone involved didn't let perfect be the enemy of good. I've never been prouder to live in this city
  - 8y ago

CathedralBorrow 8y ago

Do you see a heroin addict as a person suffering from addiction, or more of an irresponsible person indulging in a bad habit?

hycaria 8y ago
Is addiction an excuse for everything now and not simply the compulsive use of prohibited substances like it used to be ?
- CathedralBorrow 8y ago
  I don't think I mentioned 'everything' in my comment. I was talking about heroin. What do you think compels heroin users to keep using it?
  - hycaria 8y ago
    There are many other ways to do heroin than on a busy pavement, next to your own pile of feces or in a state subsidized room. Addiction is terrible but it's not an excuse to mess up everything for others. Poster is not blaming substance use there.
  - testpostpls 8y ago
    Heroin feels pretty great.
bradleyjg 8y ago
Why not both? There are addicts that live quiet unobtrusive lives and there are addicts that make everyone around them—-entire cities worth of people—-miserable. The existence of the former mean the latter don’t get off with “I’m an addict, it’s not my fault”. What we are suffering from is not merely the existence of addicts but the tolerance of addicts that choose to indulge in wantonly antisocial behavior.
- CathedralBorrow 8y ago
  I agree that addicts can certainly be irresponsible people, just like non-addicts can be. But to your point, do you believe the solution is to arrest more drug users? Is that what you mean by tolerance of addicts?

Pigo 8y ago

It feels like apathy to me. It's a lot of effort and money to deal with individual drug problems. People end up on the street with their addiction after their family and friends fail to get them to face reality. Maybe there's some benefits, or savings, to letting people continue to kill themselves, but you can't kid yourself that you're doing them a favor. You do addicts a favor by not throwing up your hands. I'm open to legalization or anything that minimizes damage, but unfortunately most people don't seek help until they've hit some kind of bottom. It's a complicated issue, and just making it easier for them to use seems as simplistic as "just say no".