4 ms·

Don't most of the Christian significant dates originate from earlier festivals from the Celts, Pagans and the rest?

coldtea 8y ago
Yes, folks were always smart to re-use things such as dates, and even forms of workship etc. But the semantics changes substantially with different religions, only dates, abstract motions, and symbols remained (seldom the symbolisms, meanings, etc). Which is why pointing that this or that custom was adopted from an earlier religion doesn't say much about it's new role -- some skeptics seem to go like "it was adopted, so it's fake" and can't fathom that it just means it was convenient and served a role for both religions, nor that the role can be completely different, even if the date is the same. Like if we replaced Xmas on Dec 25, but kept the date as a new holiday of a new religion, say, "The day of buying gifts". So, instead of the message of god becoming man, redemption, love, etc, it would mean "time to indulge ourselves with crap, and buy some token BS for others to keep the market moving". Hmm, wait, we already did that.
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  Are you admitting religion was thought up by people?
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Certainly, though they often seem to be some form of melding or merging of the two. There's still plenty of pre-Christian aspects to Easter and Christmas for instance. At this remove it seems just about impossible to pick apart, let alone identify the previous significance.
NateEag 8y ago
I believe Christmas does, falling near enough to midwinter celebrations. Easter, however, is conceptually linked to Passover, since it commemorates Christ's death at Passover and subsequent resurrection [1]. Easter's actual date is highly variable and notoriously aggravating to compute, though [2]. For reasons I do not know, the church did not want to just say "the first Sunday following Passover." 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Easter came from Ēostre that tracks back to German paganism. So it seems to have been some sort of merging of the two as it can be seen in pre-unification England long before the adoption of Christianity. If this wikipedia link is to believed she may also have been the origin of Easter hares and rabbits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre
  - dangerbird2 8y ago
    "Easter" is just the English name, which is indeed related to the Germanic goddess associated with the Germanic month which the holiday occurs. The Latin and Greek name of the holiday is "Pascha", which is a direct cognate to the Jewish holiday "Pesach", or passover.
  - foldr 8y ago
    The date of Easter was decided in AD 325 by the council of Nicea (following earlier traditions and precedents), on grounds having nothing to do with German paganism. https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-and-eggs/ https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-...
  - Jtsummers 8y ago
    I think it's important to make a distinction between the English (and other language) terms for the holiday and the holiday itself. The holiday existed before the religion spread (or fully spread) to those regions and has a different name in Latin with no connection to Eostre (Pascha). Now, the hares and rabbits and all, that's obviously not from Christian tradition or the Bible. That's clearly a regional adaptation of adopting a local tradition into the Christian celebration. This is a typical way to assimilate a culture. Reuse their traditions, but rebrand them (change masks of pagan gods or entities to be saints, change the parade to focus on the Christian symbols, etc.).
    - foldr 8y ago
      I don't think there's really any "rebranding" going on in the case of hares and rabbits. Easter is round about the time when you'll start to see more hares and rabbits outside during the mating season. Hence "mad as a March hare": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_March_hare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_March_hare There's probably a long tradition of people in Europe associating March and April with hares, but I don't think there's anything particularly "pagan" about it.
bluGill 8y ago
Depends on which branch of Christianity. Some Christians have nothing to do with Christmas because it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus. They might say anniversary of the resurrection instead of Easter (the date is correct if I understand the Hebrew calendar correctly - which I probably don't), and they would object to bunnies and other non-christian symbols of Easter. Those are the major holidays I can think of. Most Christians of course don't, which is why we think of the above as Christian holidays even though some Christians find something objectionable.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Christmas because it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus. They might say anniversary of the resurrection instead of Easter The only “Christians” (the application of this label to them is controversial within Christianity) that take this approach are Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and some related groups, who share the trait of rejecting the concept of holidays (with the exception of, or as distinguished from, the regular Sabbath). I know of no Christian group that rejects Christmas for pagan ties and refers to Easter in the way you describe.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    Historically Boston banned Christmas celebration for a few years in the 1600. https://mentalfloss.com/article/54131/time-boston-banned-christmas https://mentalfloss.com/article/54131/time-boston-banned-chr... I know of several other Christian groups today who don't. The ones you mention are the only ones anyone is likely to recognize without personally knowing someone in the church. It isn't only about rejecting holidays.
- michaelsbradley 8y ago
  > it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus There's actually quite a bit of history and uncertainty re: December 25. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Choice_of_December_25_as_the_date_of_the_birth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Choice_of_December_2... http://newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm http://newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Yes, folks were always smart to re-use things such as dates, and even forms of workship etc. But the semantics changes substantially with different religions, only dates, abstract motions, and symbols remained (seldom the symbolisms, meanings, etc). Which is why pointing that this or that custom was adopted from an earlier religion doesn't say much about it's new role -- some skeptics seem to go like "it was adopted, so it's fake" and can't fathom that it just means it was convenient and served a role for both religions, nor that the role can be completely different, even if the date is the same. Like if we replaced Xmas on Dec 25, but kept the date as a new holiday of a new religion, say, "The day of buying gifts". So, instead of the message of god becoming man, redemption, love, etc, it would mean "time to indulge ourselves with crap, and buy some token BS for others to keep the market moving". Hmm, wait, we already did that.

Tsubasachan 8y ago
Are you admitting religion was thought up by people?
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Certainly, though they often seem to be some form of melding or merging of the two. There's still plenty of pre-Christian aspects to Easter and Christmas for instance. At this remove it seems just about impossible to pick apart, let alone identify the previous significance.

NateEag 8y ago

I believe Christmas does, falling near enough to midwinter celebrations. Easter, however, is conceptually linked to Passover, since it commemorates Christ's death at Passover and subsequent resurrection [1]. Easter's actual date is highly variable and notoriously aggravating to compute, though [2]. For reasons I do not know, the church did not want to just say "the first Sunday following Passover." 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Easter came from Ēostre that tracks back to German paganism. So it seems to have been some sort of merging of the two as it can be seen in pre-unification England long before the adoption of Christianity. If this wikipedia link is to believed she may also have been the origin of Easter hares and rabbits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre
- dangerbird2 8y ago
  "Easter" is just the English name, which is indeed related to the Germanic goddess associated with the Germanic month which the holiday occurs. The Latin and Greek name of the holiday is "Pascha", which is a direct cognate to the Jewish holiday "Pesach", or passover.
- foldr 8y ago
  The date of Easter was decided in AD 325 by the council of Nicea (following earlier traditions and precedents), on grounds having nothing to do with German paganism. https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-and-eggs/ https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-...
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  I think it's important to make a distinction between the English (and other language) terms for the holiday and the holiday itself. The holiday existed before the religion spread (or fully spread) to those regions and has a different name in Latin with no connection to Eostre (Pascha). Now, the hares and rabbits and all, that's obviously not from Christian tradition or the Bible. That's clearly a regional adaptation of adopting a local tradition into the Christian celebration. This is a typical way to assimilate a culture. Reuse their traditions, but rebrand them (change masks of pagan gods or entities to be saints, change the parade to focus on the Christian symbols, etc.).
  - foldr 8y ago
    I don't think there's really any "rebranding" going on in the case of hares and rabbits. Easter is round about the time when you'll start to see more hares and rabbits outside during the mating season. Hence "mad as a March hare": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_March_hare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_March_hare There's probably a long tradition of people in Europe associating March and April with hares, but I don't think there's anything particularly "pagan" about it.

bluGill 8y ago

Depends on which branch of Christianity. Some Christians have nothing to do with Christmas because it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus. They might say anniversary of the resurrection instead of Easter (the date is correct if I understand the Hebrew calendar correctly - which I probably don't), and they would object to bunnies and other non-christian symbols of Easter. Those are the major holidays I can think of. Most Christians of course don't, which is why we think of the above as Christian holidays even though some Christians find something objectionable.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Christmas because it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus. They might say anniversary of the resurrection instead of Easter The only “Christians” (the application of this label to them is controversial within Christianity) that take this approach are Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and some related groups, who share the trait of rejecting the concept of holidays (with the exception of, or as distinguished from, the regular Sabbath). I know of no Christian group that rejects Christmas for pagan ties and refers to Easter in the way you describe.
- bluGill 8y ago
  Historically Boston banned Christmas celebration for a few years in the 1600. https://mentalfloss.com/article/54131/time-boston-banned-christmas https://mentalfloss.com/article/54131/time-boston-banned-chr... I know of several other Christian groups today who don't. The ones you mention are the only ones anyone is likely to recognize without personally knowing someone in the church. It isn't only about rejecting holidays.
michaelsbradley 8y ago
> it is just a pagan celebration with a fake wrapping of Jesus There's actually quite a bit of history and uncertainty re: December 25. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Choice_of_December_25_as_the_date_of_the_birth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Choice_of_December_2... http://newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm http://newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm