5 ms·

I was eating breakfast with a multitude of Android phones around me and four "older ones" could not access that site. The oldest that could connect was ~5 month

by emj 8y ago

I was eating breakfast with a multitude of Android phones around me and four "older ones" could not access that site. The oldest that could connect was ~5 months old, all using new Mobile Chrome versions.

chronogram 8y ago
Good to know, which also is the most relevant test I imagine with all android phones coming with chrome. Thanks.
lukasb 8y ago
I have a first-generation Pixel, so a couple years old now, and it accessed the test site fine.
- ripdog 8y ago
  That's still getting updates, isn't it?
  - lukasb 8y ago
    Ah I didn't realize that's what he meant by five months old
londons_explore 8y ago
The reality is, for a bunch of usecases, you're gonna need to support 15 plus year old devices. So Windows XP... There are a lot of old systems out there running API's, automation, industrial systems, etc. They never get updates, and are expected to last decades. Most of them aren't on the public internet, but HTTPS would still be a good idea. This change is going to mean a bunch of them just get changed over to having no encryption.
- pcnix 8y ago
  This is because the IdenTrust root is expiring though, it's not something LetsEncrypt can do anything about.
  - profmonocle 8y ago
    They could get a new cross-signed intermediate from a root with broader compatibility. Though I imagine that's extremely expensive. I expect that has something to do with this decision - they are a non-profit after all.
  - panarky 8y ago
    > it's not something LetsEncrypt can do anything about This is going to cause a lot of stuff to break, and it's 100% LE's responsibility. HN's root cert is valid through 2038. LE could have gotten cross-signed by a cert that didn't expire so soon, but they didn't.
    - londons_explore 8y ago
      > LE could have gotten cross-signed by a cert that didn't expire so soon, but they didn't. And they still could.
- tcd 8y ago
  If you want to use an old, unsupported OS then don't expect support. Expecting XP or say Windows 98 to still work on modern day standards is just laughable. Upgrade, or get left behind. The concept of 'never updating' isn't one that is practical and you'll pay the penalty for it later on.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    Consider that for mobile users, updated software might not be available for their hardware and they might not be able to afford new hardware.
    - pard68 8y ago
      Work for a university. We have a number of students in Africa, southeast Asia, and eastern Europe taking online courses. We do not support Windows XP or Vista, except for in the case of these students. Some of these guys don't have the resources for anything else. I also know that we get a number of students connecting with Android v3 or earlier from these same locales.
      - tomschlick 8y ago
        Something like Ubuntu sounds like a great fit then.
        londons_explore 8y ago
        Modern ubuntu is getting pretty heavyweight. Gone are the days it'll run on any old laptop.
        watersb 8y ago
        Absolutely. I just refurbished old Core 2 Duo desktops. Ubuntu creaked along (it was Disco Beta). I found Linux Lite, based on Ubuntu 18.04 LTS: https://www.linuxliteos.com https://www.linuxliteos.com
  - 8y ago
- aasasd 8y ago
  Most industrial devices and even consumer kiosks probably access sites that are under the control of the device's owner or manufacturer. So the sites can just use self-signed certificates in the first place. Or, for industrial use a hundred bucks on a certificate from an older CA is nothing.
  - cpach 8y ago
    Or, as 'vbezhenar hinted at elsewhere, the operators of the systems can distribute and install the ISRG root certificate to the devices that need them.
panarky 8y ago
I built an app that's used on thousands of Android devices in an industrial setting. Most of the devices were acquired last year. Just tested with the new LE root cert and it doesn't work. LE says "it's CA problem, not a Let's Encrypt problem", but that's disingenuous. Let's Encrypt chose to get cross-signed by a root that expires in a couple years. For example, HN's root doesn't expire until 2038. This is definitely a Let's Encrypt fuckup that will cause many sites and apps to break.
- nacs 8y ago
  > I built an app that's used on thousands of Android devices in an industrial setting If its that important to you or if its a commercial offering in an 'industrial setting', you should have no problems acquiring a cheap SSL certificate from another source. You can literally get them as low as $6 a year right now. LE provides a great service and continues to do so. If you want to nitpick, then jump to a 'competitor'.
  - panarky 8y ago
    > If you want to nitpick, then jump to a 'competitor' Sure, I can solve the problem by switching to a different CA, or by adding the ISRG root cert to each device. But this is a problem that didn't need to happen. I blame myself for not anticipating it when I selected LE. And I blame LE for cross-signing with a root cert that expires so soon. Not a good choice for a new CA that will take many years to be trusted on most devices.

by emj 8y ago

chronogram 8y ago

Good to know, which also is the most relevant test I imagine with all android phones coming with chrome. Thanks.

lukasb 8y ago

I have a first-generation Pixel, so a couple years old now, and it accessed the test site fine.

ripdog 8y ago
That's still getting updates, isn't it?
- lukasb 8y ago
  Ah I didn't realize that's what he meant by five months old

londons_explore 8y ago

The reality is, for a bunch of usecases, you're gonna need to support 15 plus year old devices. So Windows XP... There are a lot of old systems out there running API's, automation, industrial systems, etc. They never get updates, and are expected to last decades. Most of them aren't on the public internet, but HTTPS would still be a good idea. This change is going to mean a bunch of them just get changed over to having no encryption.

pcnix 8y ago
This is because the IdenTrust root is expiring though, it's not something LetsEncrypt can do anything about.
- profmonocle 8y ago
  They could get a new cross-signed intermediate from a root with broader compatibility. Though I imagine that's extremely expensive. I expect that has something to do with this decision - they are a non-profit after all.
- panarky 8y ago
  > it's not something LetsEncrypt can do anything about This is going to cause a lot of stuff to break, and it's 100% LE's responsibility. HN's root cert is valid through 2038. LE could have gotten cross-signed by a cert that didn't expire so soon, but they didn't.
  - londons_explore 8y ago
    > LE could have gotten cross-signed by a cert that didn't expire so soon, but they didn't. And they still could.
tcd 8y ago
If you want to use an old, unsupported OS then don't expect support. Expecting XP or say Windows 98 to still work on modern day standards is just laughable. Upgrade, or get left behind. The concept of 'never updating' isn't one that is practical and you'll pay the penalty for it later on.
- shawnz 8y ago
  Consider that for mobile users, updated software might not be available for their hardware and they might not be able to afford new hardware.
  - pard68 8y ago
    Work for a university. We have a number of students in Africa, southeast Asia, and eastern Europe taking online courses. We do not support Windows XP or Vista, except for in the case of these students. Some of these guys don't have the resources for anything else. I also know that we get a number of students connecting with Android v3 or earlier from these same locales.
    - tomschlick 8y ago
      Something like Ubuntu sounds like a great fit then.
      - londons_explore 8y ago
        Modern ubuntu is getting pretty heavyweight. Gone are the days it'll run on any old laptop.
        watersb 8y ago
        Absolutely. I just refurbished old Core 2 Duo desktops. Ubuntu creaked along (it was Disco Beta). I found Linux Lite, based on Ubuntu 18.04 LTS: https://www.linuxliteos.com https://www.linuxliteos.com
- 8y ago
aasasd 8y ago
Most industrial devices and even consumer kiosks probably access sites that are under the control of the device's owner or manufacturer. So the sites can just use self-signed certificates in the first place. Or, for industrial use a hundred bucks on a certificate from an older CA is nothing.
- cpach 8y ago
  Or, as 'vbezhenar hinted at elsewhere, the operators of the systems can distribute and install the ISRG root certificate to the devices that need them.

panarky 8y ago

I built an app that's used on thousands of Android devices in an industrial setting. Most of the devices were acquired last year. Just tested with the new LE root cert and it doesn't work. LE says "it's CA problem, not a Let's Encrypt problem", but that's disingenuous. Let's Encrypt chose to get cross-signed by a root that expires in a couple years. For example, HN's root doesn't expire until 2038. This is definitely a Let's Encrypt fuckup that will cause many sites and apps to break.

nacs 8y ago
> I built an app that's used on thousands of Android devices in an industrial setting If its that important to you or if its a commercial offering in an 'industrial setting', you should have no problems acquiring a cheap SSL certificate from another source. You can literally get them as low as $6 a year right now. LE provides a great service and continues to do so. If you want to nitpick, then jump to a 'competitor'.
- panarky 8y ago
  > If you want to nitpick, then jump to a 'competitor' Sure, I can solve the problem by switching to a different CA, or by adding the ISRG root cert to each device. But this is a problem that didn't need to happen. I blame myself for not anticipating it when I selected LE. And I blame LE for cross-signing with a root cert that expires so soon. Not a good choice for a new CA that will take many years to be trusted on most devices.