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We weren't lied to about college being the pathway to a good job; industries just took advantage of that fact and found ways to profit from it. There is a reas

We weren't lied to about college being the pathway to a good job; industries just took advantage of that fact and found ways to profit from it. There is a reason why so many people don't want to learn a trade: because they know it sucks. For every anecdote I hear about some tradesman living the good life, I can give them three about miserable workers who can't get out. Work is inconsistent, you lack much of the security and benefits that other jobs offer, it tears up your body, and working conditions are often poor. My dad had to do carpentry for months with a broken hip, because he couldn't afford to take the time off after surgery. My uncle--another carpenter--lost his job, found work in a factory to pay the bills, and lost three fingers in a machine. I briefly worked in a sheet metal shop, and many of the workers had carpel tunnel in both wrists, arthritis, and bad eyesight from all of the welders in the shop. I saw a flare from a TIG welder as I walked by someone's stall with the curtain halfway closed, and my eyes burned and watered halfway through the night. In another job, I cut off the tip of my thumb on a circular saw while building a deck. I'm a statistician now. Learning a trade, along with the almighty STEM fields, are not the solution to the college problem; they are a red herring. The real issue is that a college degree is used to screen applicants for almost every good paying, secure job in the US, regardless of whether or not a degree is really necessary to do the job. College became more available, and any entry level worker with a degree had an edge in the job market, which forced everyone else to go to college to stay competitive. In my mind, telling people to skip college and learn a trade because someone they know makes good money at it is like telling people to skip college and start acting because they know an actor that makes good money.

jalgos_eminator 8y ago
Let me clarify: There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. These are the people that need to take a look at alternate career paths, but those same people were in the room with me when the teacher was telling us about how poor you will be if you don't go do college. I agree that the prestige of a college degree has been watered down, but that is simply a supply and demand thing. If there aren't enough workers with a college degree, then the employer will hire people who don't have one, especially if the job doesn't actually require a degree.
- rchaud 8y ago
  > There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. Wouldn't you say this is a bit 20/20 hindsight-y? You can be an A/B+ average student in HS and be completely out of your depth in college, depending on your course choices and rigor of the institution. I didn't realize until maybe sophomore year that I perform better in applied scenarios rather than theoretical. I'd fail my stats midterms because I didn't understand hetero/homoskedasticity, but I would ace the final project because it gave you a dataset that you were supposed to analyze in STATA to answer specific questions. Got a B- overall though, due to the bad midterm grade. Now, I'm not the kind of person who would fall into the typical "college isn't for you" category, but I did still graduate in 2009 with a 5-figure debt load, an average GPA and a recession economy. I'm sure there were tens of thousands of students like me. We likely have paid off the debt by now and are gainfully employed, but we still question the value of the degree in terms of both financial and time-based opportunity cost.
  - jalgos_eminator 8y ago
    Yes, there are some people that by all measures should do well in college, but just don't. That is going to happen in any population of people. What I was talking about was students that I met early on (i.e. in the dorms or 2nd year) that were just there for posterity. They were there to get a degree just to say "I got a degree", and not the knowledge they gained there. I also knew quite a few of the athletes, but that is a separate discussion. Yes, your situation is pretty rough as far as college grads go. My brother graduated a few years after that, but luckily got a job somewhat quickly as the economy was slowly rebounding. Maybe it is 20/20 to talk about this because not many people saw that recession coming. Kids entering college in 2004 were seeing a good economy, and that affected the cost/benefit for them.
thatoneuser 8y ago
I mean what you're describing with trades is just as rampant in college educated jobs, minus the back breaking work but adding in other ergonomic nightmares of an office and more political and social stress. Not saying you're wrong but I think the problem is workers aren't getting their fair share for the progress of society. No matter their background.
jrochkind1 8y ago
I wonder what they are really screening for when they require a college degree for jobs it is not necessary for. They're not doing it for no reason... I expect it's attempting to screen for class, basically. No poor people, or at least people that seem like poor people and can't fake it.
- im3w1l 8y ago
  Most business people are fundamentally interested in the good of the business. They require a college degree because they think someone with a college degree will do a better job. Now there can be two reasons for that. 1. Skills learnt while getting the degree 2. The degree is a proxy for things not learnt during the degree. Think which things improve business value? General aptitude. Connections. Perseverance. To the extent that 1 dominates, increased college attendance is great. To the extent that 2 dominates, increased college is an expensive signalling game. Which is which? A little rule of thumb I have. If jobs require a degree from a good school, but the subject doesn't matter, then it's mostly signalling. If jobs require a particular degree, but the school doesn't matter as much then it's probably dominated by 1. If interviews in the profession focus more on live demonstrating skills it's probably more 1. If interviews in the profession focus on telling a story that puts you in a good light it's probably 2. How many people can a field absorb? Is it a fairly constant need of x carpenters are needed per capita to supply everyone with furniture (risks turning to signalling game about those fixed opportunities)? Or is it the more people we have, the cooler things we can build, the sky is the limit (clear this bar and your good to go)? Is there a immigration of people in the field because domestic schools are not capable of meeting demand? That indicates a skill gap, 1. It can also mean the job is so shit no one wants to do it, but differentiating those cases should be simple.

jalgos_eminator 8y ago

Let me clarify: There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. These are the people that need to take a look at alternate career paths, but those same people were in the room with me when the teacher was telling us about how poor you will be if you don't go do college. I agree that the prestige of a college degree has been watered down, but that is simply a supply and demand thing. If there aren't enough workers with a college degree, then the employer will hire people who don't have one, especially if the job doesn't actually require a degree.

rchaud 8y ago
> There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. Wouldn't you say this is a bit 20/20 hindsight-y? You can be an A/B+ average student in HS and be completely out of your depth in college, depending on your course choices and rigor of the institution. I didn't realize until maybe sophomore year that I perform better in applied scenarios rather than theoretical. I'd fail my stats midterms because I didn't understand hetero/homoskedasticity, but I would ace the final project because it gave you a dataset that you were supposed to analyze in STATA to answer specific questions. Got a B- overall though, due to the bad midterm grade. Now, I'm not the kind of person who would fall into the typical "college isn't for you" category, but I did still graduate in 2009 with a 5-figure debt load, an average GPA and a recession economy. I'm sure there were tens of thousands of students like me. We likely have paid off the debt by now and are gainfully employed, but we still question the value of the degree in terms of both financial and time-based opportunity cost.
- jalgos_eminator 8y ago
  Yes, there are some people that by all measures should do well in college, but just don't. That is going to happen in any population of people. What I was talking about was students that I met early on (i.e. in the dorms or 2nd year) that were just there for posterity. They were there to get a degree just to say "I got a degree", and not the knowledge they gained there. I also knew quite a few of the athletes, but that is a separate discussion. Yes, your situation is pretty rough as far as college grads go. My brother graduated a few years after that, but luckily got a job somewhat quickly as the economy was slowly rebounding. Maybe it is 20/20 to talk about this because not many people saw that recession coming. Kids entering college in 2004 were seeing a good economy, and that affected the cost/benefit for them.

thatoneuser 8y ago

I mean what you're describing with trades is just as rampant in college educated jobs, minus the back breaking work but adding in other ergonomic nightmares of an office and more political and social stress. Not saying you're wrong but I think the problem is workers aren't getting their fair share for the progress of society. No matter their background.

jrochkind1 8y ago

I wonder what they are really screening for when they require a college degree for jobs it is not necessary for. They're not doing it for no reason... I expect it's attempting to screen for class, basically. No poor people, or at least people that seem like poor people and can't fake it.

im3w1l 8y ago
Most business people are fundamentally interested in the good of the business. They require a college degree because they think someone with a college degree will do a better job. Now there can be two reasons for that. 1. Skills learnt while getting the degree 2. The degree is a proxy for things not learnt during the degree. Think which things improve business value? General aptitude. Connections. Perseverance. To the extent that 1 dominates, increased college attendance is great. To the extent that 2 dominates, increased college is an expensive signalling game. Which is which? A little rule of thumb I have. If jobs require a degree from a good school, but the subject doesn't matter, then it's mostly signalling. If jobs require a particular degree, but the school doesn't matter as much then it's probably dominated by 1. If interviews in the profession focus more on live demonstrating skills it's probably more 1. If interviews in the profession focus on telling a story that puts you in a good light it's probably 2. How many people can a field absorb? Is it a fairly constant need of x carpenters are needed per capita to supply everyone with furniture (risks turning to signalling game about those fixed opportunities)? Or is it the more people we have, the cooler things we can build, the sky is the limit (clear this bar and your good to go)? Is there a immigration of people in the field because domestic schools are not capable of meeting demand? That indicates a skill gap, 1. It can also mean the job is so shit no one wants to do it, but differentiating those cases should be simple.