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I remember in middle school and high school we were told in no uncertain terms that we should all get 4 year college degrees because they gave the highest lifet

I remember in middle school and high school we were told in no uncertain terms that we should all get 4 year college degrees because they gave the highest lifetime earnings. My high school was lucky enough to have an auto shop in it with a teacher that had been a mechanic/shop owner for years. He told us some good stories and also told us about how much money he made in the industry. I didn't think about it much then because I was dead set on getting an engineering degree, but I've had this feeling about 4 year colleges for a while now. I saw so many people at my state college (~30,000 enrollment) that had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do, lacked the skills to be effective in college, or were in a degree program that had no job opportunities. I saw many of them drop out after 1-2 years, but also saw ones that remained and got their degree. Now they are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with nothing to show for it, and the people who did graduate are in more debt with no good job prospects. It feels like we were lied to about college by all the adults in our lives.

russh 7y ago
You weren't lied to, you just dropped the ball.
- news_to_me 7y ago
  What? How?
- jalgos_eminator 7y ago
  I got my EE/CS degree and currently work in software development. I was talking about people I knew from my first few years at college and my high school experience. I was still lied to, but it worked great for me because what I wanted to do requires a college degree and compensation is notoriously good.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Senior software engineer for 7 years. I don't have a degree. I love this field because it is like a modern day trade. You can teach yourself and you can showcase your skill without a piece of paper.
ultrarunner 7y ago
Lying assumes malice, which assumes that the people in a position to encourage a college track vs career track have any understanding of the situation whatsoever. People are incredibly adept at repeating a truism that they've themselves been told. No bearing on reality required.
- jalgos_eminator 7y ago
  Philosophically I would disagree that lying assumes malice. We don't really have a word in english to describe "lying without malice", and I suspect the reason why is because we don't recognize a significant enough difference between them to warrant its own word.
  - FiddlyPack 7y ago
    “Lying without malice” is called “tact.”
    - jalgos_eminator 7y ago
      Not sure what dictionary you got that out of, but to me "tact" means to tell someone something in a less abrasive way, or politely. Tact is about how the information is presented, not the content of it.
areyouseriousxx 7y ago
I think you might be surprised to learn about the modern economics of being an auto mechanic. [1] [1] https://thinkprogress.org/the-harsh-reality-of-being-an-auto-mechanic-6779cd9d4843/ https://thinkprogress.org/the-harsh-reality-of-being-an-auto...
- analog31 7y ago
  In addition to what the article points out, another issue is that many tradespeople are employed by small or family owned businesses, so your prospects for getting into a decent job may depend on your family and connections. Otherwise, you'll be working behind the parts counter at Auto Zone.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
carnagii 7y ago
The earnings for college graduates are very misleading because virtually all the children of wealthy people graduate from college, and they get high salaries, but those high salaries are due to nepotism and exploiting their parent's networks, and have nothing to do with their college degree. For poor/lower-middle-class students college is mostly b.s. and you can be doing the exact same job for half the wage because you don't have the connections to get the high salary.
- opportune 7y ago
  To my knowledge you don't need nepotism to get good jobs in STEM or high paying professions like dentistry, nursing, physical therapy, medicine, or law (well, actually in law if you are only a mediocre graduate nepotism can help a lot).
  - carnagii 7y ago
    depends on what you call a good job: 6 figures as a grunt or 7-8 figures as an "entrepreneur."
    - opportune 7y ago
      In the vast majority of the country outside major west coast metro areas and corridor from NoVa to Boston, 6 figures is a pretty good job
- analog31 7y ago
  In my view it's not just connections. The children of wealthy people are also, for the most part, children of educated people. As a result, they know how to navigate the college system and to get the most out of it. There are things about college that I've explicitly told my kids. Someone who doesn't know, or is predisposed to believe that college is worthless, won't ever know what they missed out on. Also, by the time they hit college, kids are already highly differentiated, and this affects their access to the more fructifying opportunities in college. There's this giant Sorting Hat, and it's called Math. So I don't deny the wealth effect, but I don't think it's fully explained by connections.
SantalBlush 7y ago
We weren't lied to about college being the pathway to a good job; industries just took advantage of that fact and found ways to profit from it. There is a reason why so many people don't want to learn a trade: because they know it sucks. For every anecdote I hear about some tradesman living the good life, I can give them three about miserable workers who can't get out. Work is inconsistent, you lack much of the security and benefits that other jobs offer, it tears up your body, and working conditions are often poor. My dad had to do carpentry for months with a broken hip, because he couldn't afford to take the time off after surgery. My uncle--another carpenter--lost his job, found work in a factory to pay the bills, and lost three fingers in a machine. I briefly worked in a sheet metal shop, and many of the workers had carpel tunnel in both wrists, arthritis, and bad eyesight from all of the welders in the shop. I saw a flare from a TIG welder as I walked by someone's stall with the curtain halfway closed, and my eyes burned and watered halfway through the night. In another job, I cut off the tip of my thumb on a circular saw while building a deck. I'm a statistician now. Learning a trade, along with the almighty STEM fields, are not the solution to the college problem; they are a red herring. The real issue is that a college degree is used to screen applicants for almost every good paying, secure job in the US, regardless of whether or not a degree is really necessary to do the job. College became more available, and any entry level worker with a degree had an edge in the job market, which forced everyone else to go to college to stay competitive. In my mind, telling people to skip college and learn a trade because someone they know makes good money at it is like telling people to skip college and start acting because they know an actor that makes good money.
- jalgos_eminator 7y ago
  Let me clarify: There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. These are the people that need to take a look at alternate career paths, but those same people were in the room with me when the teacher was telling us about how poor you will be if you don't go do college. I agree that the prestige of a college degree has been watered down, but that is simply a supply and demand thing. If there aren't enough workers with a college degree, then the employer will hire people who don't have one, especially if the job doesn't actually require a degree.
vonseel 7y ago
He told us some good stories and also told us about how much money he made in the industry. Good on him for being open about earnings. Most Americans are not so transparent and I wish I had known that many trades offer similar earnings potential to most careers for 4-year degree earners.
closeparen 7y ago
Median weekly earnings is currently $739 for high school graduates, $1,350 for those with at least a bachelor's degree. Reasonable people can disagree on causality, cost-benefit, etc. but the association between earnings and educational attainment is definitely real. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

russh 7y ago

You weren't lied to, you just dropped the ball.

news_to_me 7y ago
What? How?
jalgos_eminator 7y ago
I got my EE/CS degree and currently work in software development. I was talking about people I knew from my first few years at college and my high school experience. I was still lied to, but it worked great for me because what I wanted to do requires a college degree and compensation is notoriously good.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Senior software engineer for 7 years. I don't have a degree. I love this field because it is like a modern day trade. You can teach yourself and you can showcase your skill without a piece of paper.

ultrarunner 7y ago

Lying assumes malice, which assumes that the people in a position to encourage a college track vs career track have any understanding of the situation whatsoever. People are incredibly adept at repeating a truism that they've themselves been told. No bearing on reality required.

jalgos_eminator 7y ago
Philosophically I would disagree that lying assumes malice. We don't really have a word in english to describe "lying without malice", and I suspect the reason why is because we don't recognize a significant enough difference between them to warrant its own word.
- FiddlyPack 7y ago
  “Lying without malice” is called “tact.”
  - jalgos_eminator 7y ago
    Not sure what dictionary you got that out of, but to me "tact" means to tell someone something in a less abrasive way, or politely. Tact is about how the information is presented, not the content of it.

areyouseriousxx 7y ago

I think you might be surprised to learn about the modern economics of being an auto mechanic. [1] [1] https://thinkprogress.org/the-harsh-reality-of-being-an-auto-mechanic-6779cd9d4843/ https://thinkprogress.org/the-harsh-reality-of-being-an-auto...

analog31 7y ago
In addition to what the article points out, another issue is that many tradespeople are employed by small or family owned businesses, so your prospects for getting into a decent job may depend on your family and connections. Otherwise, you'll be working behind the parts counter at Auto Zone.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

carnagii 7y ago

The earnings for college graduates are very misleading because virtually all the children of wealthy people graduate from college, and they get high salaries, but those high salaries are due to nepotism and exploiting their parent's networks, and have nothing to do with their college degree. For poor/lower-middle-class students college is mostly b.s. and you can be doing the exact same job for half the wage because you don't have the connections to get the high salary.

opportune 7y ago
To my knowledge you don't need nepotism to get good jobs in STEM or high paying professions like dentistry, nursing, physical therapy, medicine, or law (well, actually in law if you are only a mediocre graduate nepotism can help a lot).
- carnagii 7y ago
  depends on what you call a good job: 6 figures as a grunt or 7-8 figures as an "entrepreneur."
  - opportune 7y ago
    In the vast majority of the country outside major west coast metro areas and corridor from NoVa to Boston, 6 figures is a pretty good job
analog31 7y ago
In my view it's not just connections. The children of wealthy people are also, for the most part, children of educated people. As a result, they know how to navigate the college system and to get the most out of it. There are things about college that I've explicitly told my kids. Someone who doesn't know, or is predisposed to believe that college is worthless, won't ever know what they missed out on. Also, by the time they hit college, kids are already highly differentiated, and this affects their access to the more fructifying opportunities in college. There's this giant Sorting Hat, and it's called Math. So I don't deny the wealth effect, but I don't think it's fully explained by connections.

SantalBlush 7y ago

We weren't lied to about college being the pathway to a good job; industries just took advantage of that fact and found ways to profit from it. There is a reason why so many people don't want to learn a trade: because they know it sucks. For every anecdote I hear about some tradesman living the good life, I can give them three about miserable workers who can't get out. Work is inconsistent, you lack much of the security and benefits that other jobs offer, it tears up your body, and working conditions are often poor. My dad had to do carpentry for months with a broken hip, because he couldn't afford to take the time off after surgery. My uncle--another carpenter--lost his job, found work in a factory to pay the bills, and lost three fingers in a machine. I briefly worked in a sheet metal shop, and many of the workers had carpel tunnel in both wrists, arthritis, and bad eyesight from all of the welders in the shop. I saw a flare from a TIG welder as I walked by someone's stall with the curtain halfway closed, and my eyes burned and watered halfway through the night. In another job, I cut off the tip of my thumb on a circular saw while building a deck. I'm a statistician now. Learning a trade, along with the almighty STEM fields, are not the solution to the college problem; they are a red herring. The real issue is that a college degree is used to screen applicants for almost every good paying, secure job in the US, regardless of whether or not a degree is really necessary to do the job. College became more available, and any entry level worker with a degree had an edge in the job market, which forced everyone else to go to college to stay competitive. In my mind, telling people to skip college and learn a trade because someone they know makes good money at it is like telling people to skip college and start acting because they know an actor that makes good money.

jalgos_eminator 7y ago
Let me clarify: There are people out there that just should not go to college. It would be a waste of time and money for them. These are the people that need to take a look at alternate career paths, but those same people were in the room with me when the teacher was telling us about how poor you will be if you don't go do college. I agree that the prestige of a college degree has been watered down, but that is simply a supply and demand thing. If there aren't enough workers with a college degree, then the employer will hire people who don't have one, especially if the job doesn't actually require a degree.

vonseel 7y ago

He told us some good stories and also told us about how much money he made in the industry. Good on him for being open about earnings. Most Americans are not so transparent and I wish I had known that many trades offer similar earnings potential to most careers for 4-year degree earners.

closeparen 7y ago

Median weekly earnings is currently $739 for high school graduates, $1,350 for those with at least a bachelor's degree. Reasonable people can disagree on causality, cost-benefit, etc. but the association between earnings and educational attainment is definitely real. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf