8 ms·

Ah yes, Estonia, that great place that have 6% of their population who are stateless citizens based on ethnic politics, which strips those people who lived thei

Ah yes, Estonia, that great place that have 6% of their population who are stateless citizens based on ethnic politics, which strips those people who lived their entire life there of their EU citizen rights as well.

banach 8y ago
Could you provide some references?
- amigoMigo 8y ago
  The comment above you added a bunch.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ericcholis 8y ago
  Anecdotally, I can say that there is a strong distrust of Russians stemming from the various occupation of Baltic states as recently as 1991. [1] [1] Source: My wife's estonian grandparents
  - passing_through 8y ago
    I wouldn't say this is necessarily true in younger generations. I grew up with kids from Russian families in school & kindergarten and the distrust of Russians instilled in you by your parents quickly fades. Older generations are a bit more problematic in this regard. I would say there's a general hate towards older Russians that still can't speak Estonian, even from younger generations. However, I would say Russians are generally disadvantaged in Estonia and that's a big source of issues. In my childhood, younger Russians tended to be poorer and therefore were more involved in various criminal activities. Most of my friends and I were afraid of Russians in our area, as they liked to pick fights and generally mess with you.
elfakyn 8y ago
Before anyone asks for sources: https://www.fpri.org/article/2017/03/nationality-ethnicity-estonias-problematic-citizenship-policy/ https://www.fpri.org/article/2017/03/nationality-ethnicity-e... https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/03/many-ethnic-russians-in-estonia-have-gray-passports-live-in-legal-limbo.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/03/many-ethnic-russ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia#Citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia#Citizenshi... https://ecpr.eu/filestore/paperproposal/3e77f4ab-9a20-4440-b23c-0746c8bce314.pdf https://ecpr.eu/filestore/paperproposal/3e77f4ab-9a20-4440-b...
99052882514569 8y ago
Estonia was under foreign occupation for 40 years. At the end of that period, it imposed a straightforward language requirement for ex-colonists to gain citizenship. - It did not try to throw them out like many countries have done in the past. - It did not simply keep them around as jus sanguinis countries do. I've known a person whose PARENTS were born in Switzerland and she doesn't have a citizenship. So kindly let's all ease off on indignation before learning at least a tiny bit about a) Estonian history and b) how citizenship laws very in all our oh-so-advanced mature Western democracies.
- yeahforsureman 8y ago
  They were invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union, not the ethnic Russian individuals that moved or were transferred there under Stalin's rule and thereafter, let alone their kids who many have never lived anywhere else. Your failure to make a distinction between a state, its ethnic composition and the individuals residing there just kinda embarassingly highlights the ethno-nationalist ideology underlying these laws.
  - 99052882514569 8y ago
    >They were invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union, not the ethnic Russian individuals that moved or were transferred there under Stalin's rule and thereafter, let alone their kids who many have never lived anywhere else. Yes, ex-colonists are usually not personally guilty of the transgressions of their original state. >our failure to make a distinction between a state, its ethnic composition and the individuals residing there just kinda embarassingly highlights the ethno-nationalist ideology underlying these laws. Sorry, the "ethno-nationalist ideology" canard doesn't pass muster. There's absolutely no ethnic component to this. Descendants of ethnic Russians who lived in Estonia prior to 1940 (or which there were a reasonable number) were given Estonian citizenship in 1991 like any other Estonians who descend from those living in Estonia prior to 1940. The law is based on residency during occupation, not ethnic origin.
dullgiulio 8y ago
The reason why many "stateless citizens" don't get their EU citizen right is that as EU citizens they have to pay a visa to visit neighbouring Russia, with the grey passport they have they don't have to (Russia treats them specially.) There is a procedure to obtain full citizenship, which includes a basic test of Estonian language. If you lived all your life in Estonia, the test should be pretty easy. Personally, I would wave it in many cases. Many EU countries have much more difficult procedures to gain citizenship.
- sccxy 8y ago
  This is correct It is better to be stateless citizen than Estonian or Russian. It gives privileges in both countries. Double citizenship are not allowed in Estonia.
  - dullgiulio 8y ago
    Double citizenships are actually allowed in some cases (dual citizenship from birth, honorary bestowment, etc.) Many grey passport holders are also offered Russian citizenship (with which they could still legally live in Estonia), but they refuse it. This citizenship topic is not as black and white as one usually reads.
lilsoso 8y ago
"The restored republic recognised citizenship only for the pre-occupation citizens" You do recognize that the Russians invaded their land, killed their people, and occupied their houses, right? If that is granted, surely you recognize the reluctance to endow those same people citizenship.
romanovcode 8y ago
After collapse of Soviet Union some Russians decided to not get Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian citizenship thus staying alien. Their kids then also become Alien. There are countless of programs to give citizenship and it is very streamlined and costs nearly nothing. Most of those aliens have identity issues and love Russia and Putin, however do not go to live there. Also because of such identity issues they hate Baltics and out of spite do not learn the language thus are unable to attain EU citizenship. Sad story really, however Estonia has nothing to do with this, Baltics are doing all they can to help them - they just refuse the help.
- way-way 8y ago
  There is Estonian language test requirement for Resident former USSR citizens to be granted Estonian citizenship ?
offa 8y ago
"The Citizenship Act provides the following requirements for naturalisation of those people who had arrived in the country after 1940, the majority of whom were ethnic Russians: knowledge of the Estonian language, Constitution and a pledge of loyalty to Estonia. The government offers free preparation courses for the examination on the Constitution and the Citizenship Act, and reimburses up to 380 euros for language studies." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything particularly bad about this policy. Considering the fact that the Baltic countries were under Russian occupation for a while, I don't have much of a problem with them making those Russians who decide to stay learn the language. This is coming from an ethnic Russian whose family used to live in Latvia, and who now resides in Canada - learning English was also required here since I wanted to obtain Canadian citizenship.
- free652 8y ago
  >learning English was also required here since I wanted to obtain Canadian citizenship. Is it required for people that were born in Canada? And is it English or French? Or both?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- amigoMigo 8y ago
  You weren't born in Canada. That's why you had to take a language exam to gain citizenship. Estonia forces people born in the country of "wrong" ethnicity to go through naturalization process.
  - offa 8y ago
    Let's not forget that the 'wrong ethnicity' invaded Estonia in the 1940s and occupied it until 1991. As someone who has spent enough time in Russian communities which outright refuse to learn the language of their host countries, it's a little hard to sympathize with those of my fellow countrymen who cannot even take a language exam while also wanting citizenship thanks to the Soviet Union's occupation of the Baltic states. But yes, I agree that my particular situation is, of course, different.

banach 8y ago

Could you provide some references?

amigoMigo 8y ago
The comment above you added a bunch.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ericcholis 8y ago
Anecdotally, I can say that there is a strong distrust of Russians stemming from the various occupation of Baltic states as recently as 1991. [1] [1] Source: My wife's estonian grandparents
- passing_through 8y ago
  I wouldn't say this is necessarily true in younger generations. I grew up with kids from Russian families in school & kindergarten and the distrust of Russians instilled in you by your parents quickly fades. Older generations are a bit more problematic in this regard. I would say there's a general hate towards older Russians that still can't speak Estonian, even from younger generations. However, I would say Russians are generally disadvantaged in Estonia and that's a big source of issues. In my childhood, younger Russians tended to be poorer and therefore were more involved in various criminal activities. Most of my friends and I were afraid of Russians in our area, as they liked to pick fights and generally mess with you.

elfakyn 8y ago

Before anyone asks for sources: https://www.fpri.org/article/2017/03/nationality-ethnicity-estonias-problematic-citizenship-policy/ https://www.fpri.org/article/2017/03/nationality-ethnicity-e... https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/03/many-ethnic-russians-in-estonia-have-gray-passports-live-in-legal-limbo.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/03/many-ethnic-russ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia#Citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia#Citizenshi... https://ecpr.eu/filestore/paperproposal/3e77f4ab-9a20-4440-b23c-0746c8bce314.pdf https://ecpr.eu/filestore/paperproposal/3e77f4ab-9a20-4440-b...

99052882514569 8y ago

Estonia was under foreign occupation for 40 years. At the end of that period, it imposed a straightforward language requirement for ex-colonists to gain citizenship. - It did not try to throw them out like many countries have done in the past. - It did not simply keep them around as jus sanguinis countries do. I've known a person whose PARENTS were born in Switzerland and she doesn't have a citizenship. So kindly let's all ease off on indignation before learning at least a tiny bit about a) Estonian history and b) how citizenship laws very in all our oh-so-advanced mature Western democracies.

yeahforsureman 8y ago
They were invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union, not the ethnic Russian individuals that moved or were transferred there under Stalin's rule and thereafter, let alone their kids who many have never lived anywhere else. Your failure to make a distinction between a state, its ethnic composition and the individuals residing there just kinda embarassingly highlights the ethno-nationalist ideology underlying these laws.
- 99052882514569 8y ago
  >They were invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union, not the ethnic Russian individuals that moved or were transferred there under Stalin's rule and thereafter, let alone their kids who many have never lived anywhere else. Yes, ex-colonists are usually not personally guilty of the transgressions of their original state. >our failure to make a distinction between a state, its ethnic composition and the individuals residing there just kinda embarassingly highlights the ethno-nationalist ideology underlying these laws. Sorry, the "ethno-nationalist ideology" canard doesn't pass muster. There's absolutely no ethnic component to this. Descendants of ethnic Russians who lived in Estonia prior to 1940 (or which there were a reasonable number) were given Estonian citizenship in 1991 like any other Estonians who descend from those living in Estonia prior to 1940. The law is based on residency during occupation, not ethnic origin.

dullgiulio 8y ago

The reason why many "stateless citizens" don't get their EU citizen right is that as EU citizens they have to pay a visa to visit neighbouring Russia, with the grey passport they have they don't have to (Russia treats them specially.) There is a procedure to obtain full citizenship, which includes a basic test of Estonian language. If you lived all your life in Estonia, the test should be pretty easy. Personally, I would wave it in many cases. Many EU countries have much more difficult procedures to gain citizenship.

sccxy 8y ago
This is correct It is better to be stateless citizen than Estonian or Russian. It gives privileges in both countries. Double citizenship are not allowed in Estonia.
- dullgiulio 8y ago
  Double citizenships are actually allowed in some cases (dual citizenship from birth, honorary bestowment, etc.) Many grey passport holders are also offered Russian citizenship (with which they could still legally live in Estonia), but they refuse it. This citizenship topic is not as black and white as one usually reads.

lilsoso 8y ago

"The restored republic recognised citizenship only for the pre-occupation citizens" You do recognize that the Russians invaded their land, killed their people, and occupied their houses, right? If that is granted, surely you recognize the reluctance to endow those same people citizenship.

romanovcode 8y ago

After collapse of Soviet Union some Russians decided to not get Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian citizenship thus staying alien. Their kids then also become Alien. There are countless of programs to give citizenship and it is very streamlined and costs nearly nothing. Most of those aliens have identity issues and love Russia and Putin, however do not go to live there. Also because of such identity issues they hate Baltics and out of spite do not learn the language thus are unable to attain EU citizenship. Sad story really, however Estonia has nothing to do with this, Baltics are doing all they can to help them - they just refuse the help.

way-way 8y ago
There is Estonian language test requirement for Resident former USSR citizens to be granted Estonian citizenship ?

offa 8y ago

"The Citizenship Act provides the following requirements for naturalisation of those people who had arrived in the country after 1940, the majority of whom were ethnic Russians: knowledge of the Estonian language, Constitution and a pledge of loyalty to Estonia. The government offers free preparation courses for the examination on the Constitution and the Citizenship Act, and reimburses up to 380 euros for language studies." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything particularly bad about this policy. Considering the fact that the Baltic countries were under Russian occupation for a while, I don't have much of a problem with them making those Russians who decide to stay learn the language. This is coming from an ethnic Russian whose family used to live in Latvia, and who now resides in Canada - learning English was also required here since I wanted to obtain Canadian citizenship.

free652 8y ago
>learning English was also required here since I wanted to obtain Canadian citizenship. Is it required for people that were born in Canada? And is it English or French? Or both?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
amigoMigo 8y ago
You weren't born in Canada. That's why you had to take a language exam to gain citizenship. Estonia forces people born in the country of "wrong" ethnicity to go through naturalization process.
- offa 8y ago
  Let's not forget that the 'wrong ethnicity' invaded Estonia in the 1940s and occupied it until 1991. As someone who has spent enough time in Russian communities which outright refuse to learn the language of their host countries, it's a little hard to sympathize with those of my fellow countrymen who cannot even take a language exam while also wanting citizenship thanks to the Soviet Union's occupation of the Baltic states. But yes, I agree that my particular situation is, of course, different.