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Hacking computers shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Fraud, theft, etc. are the types of crimes many "hackers" could be charged with, but computer intrusi

Hacking computers shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Fraud, theft, etc. are the types of crimes many "hackers" could be charged with, but computer intrusion itself shouldn't be counted among them.

vkou 7y ago
Invading a space is a crime, even if no other crime has been committed, be it in facilitating the invasion, or afterwards.
- equalunique 7y ago
  So if Y Combinator updated their Hacker News terms of service to say "vkou is no longer allowed on the site" you will turn yourself in to the police? My point is, you aren't doing yourself any favors by championing the ability of big institutions to put you in jail simply for accessing information.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Do you really think that there's no categorical difference between that, and what Assange did? It's an absurd analogy, with an absurd conclusion. If you interpret a law absurdly, you will get absurd outcomes. Fortunately, we have judges and juries for that.
techntoke 7y ago
Trespassing is a crime, as well as breaking and entering.
- equalunique 7y ago
  I am curious to know what your opinion is regarding the case of Aaron Swartz. Was 35 years appropriate?
  - techntoke 7y ago
    Not at all, however I don't know the full extent of his charges. I don't actually even know if he actually hacked into anything or if he just abused the system he already had access to, in order to disseminate information that would normally cost money via a subscription. However, if I recall I believe he did break into a computer lab or something and hacked into the university computers to bypass their regular security. But it is my understanding the University itself didn't own the content he distributed either, so it isn't like he stole directly from the University but instead abused the access he had and likely violated some terms of service. I see it more as a civil issue, minus the breaking and entering. However, there is strict law regarding hacking confidential government documents and trying to break into government systems. I see it a vastly different matter with very different implications.
HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
I translated this for you: Breaking into houses shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Stealing things, breaking stuff, or photographing ID's are crimes that people can be charged with, but I don't think that breaking into houses should be counted. See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react? Similarly, while hacking things doesn't directly endanger people, doing anything with the information does, and this includes reconnaissance for a later hit.
- equalunique 7y ago
  >See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react? Stealing is a crime. Shooting you is a crime. Simply "being there" should qualify as a crime, or perhaps maybe a misdemeanor, only after some scrutiny. Intent as a factor should have more weight. Using your house analogy, if a bystander notices the door to your home is wide open, they shouldn't be afraid to check if anyone inside is potentially incapacitated or is having some other emergency, just because entering an open door is a crime under your logic. In one society, a concerned neighbor finds you lying on the floor unconscious, dials 9/11, and emergency services arrives on time for you to be saved. In the other society, nobody checks on you, because why take the risk? Similarly, the whole concept of "white hat" hacking is something you seem either unfamiliar with and/or at odds with.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    The thing that was missing for me earlier was the intent part- thank you for mentioning that. Furthermore, I'm sorry I attacked you- I took a bit too cynical of a position here- I do understand the concept of White Hatting, and recognize its importance. I have also dealt with one too many "White Hats" that expect a monetary reward for finding bugs when I'm not in a position to do so, and have then gone and attacked me hard. It's not fun. Now, I have been, and still am, one of those people that do occasionally poke at other people's stuff, and when I find something, I will tip them off. This is also not my day job, and as such, outside of official bug reporting platforms, I always specify that I will not accept compensation for what I have found. Many people are not that principled, and that bothers me to no end.

vkou 7y ago

Invading a space is a crime, even if no other crime has been committed, be it in facilitating the invasion, or afterwards.

equalunique 7y ago
So if Y Combinator updated their Hacker News terms of service to say "vkou is no longer allowed on the site" you will turn yourself in to the police? My point is, you aren't doing yourself any favors by championing the ability of big institutions to put you in jail simply for accessing information.
- vkou 7y ago
  Do you really think that there's no categorical difference between that, and what Assange did? It's an absurd analogy, with an absurd conclusion. If you interpret a law absurdly, you will get absurd outcomes. Fortunately, we have judges and juries for that.

techntoke 7y ago

Trespassing is a crime, as well as breaking and entering.

equalunique 7y ago
I am curious to know what your opinion is regarding the case of Aaron Swartz. Was 35 years appropriate?
- techntoke 7y ago
  Not at all, however I don't know the full extent of his charges. I don't actually even know if he actually hacked into anything or if he just abused the system he already had access to, in order to disseminate information that would normally cost money via a subscription. However, if I recall I believe he did break into a computer lab or something and hacked into the university computers to bypass their regular security. But it is my understanding the University itself didn't own the content he distributed either, so it isn't like he stole directly from the University but instead abused the access he had and likely violated some terms of service. I see it more as a civil issue, minus the breaking and entering. However, there is strict law regarding hacking confidential government documents and trying to break into government systems. I see it a vastly different matter with very different implications.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago

I translated this for you: Breaking into houses shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Stealing things, breaking stuff, or photographing ID's are crimes that people can be charged with, but I don't think that breaking into houses should be counted. See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react? Similarly, while hacking things doesn't directly endanger people, doing anything with the information does, and this includes reconnaissance for a later hit.

equalunique 7y ago
>See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react? Stealing is a crime. Shooting you is a crime. Simply "being there" should qualify as a crime, or perhaps maybe a misdemeanor, only after some scrutiny. Intent as a factor should have more weight. Using your house analogy, if a bystander notices the door to your home is wide open, they shouldn't be afraid to check if anyone inside is potentially incapacitated or is having some other emergency, just because entering an open door is a crime under your logic. In one society, a concerned neighbor finds you lying on the floor unconscious, dials 9/11, and emergency services arrives on time for you to be saved. In the other society, nobody checks on you, because why take the risk? Similarly, the whole concept of "white hat" hacking is something you seem either unfamiliar with and/or at odds with.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  The thing that was missing for me earlier was the intent part- thank you for mentioning that. Furthermore, I'm sorry I attacked you- I took a bit too cynical of a position here- I do understand the concept of White Hatting, and recognize its importance. I have also dealt with one too many "White Hats" that expect a monetary reward for finding bugs when I'm not in a position to do so, and have then gone and attacked me hard. It's not fun. Now, I have been, and still am, one of those people that do occasionally poke at other people's stuff, and when I find something, I will tip them off. This is also not my day job, and as such, outside of official bug reporting platforms, I always specify that I will not accept compensation for what I have found. Many people are not that principled, and that bothers me to no end.