3 ms·

> You need to be willing to endure the discomfort of looking someone in the face, saying “I don’t know”, and then standing your ground when they pruessure you t

> You need to be willing to endure the discomfort of looking someone in the face, saying “I don’t know”, and then standing your ground when they pruessure you to lie to them. This. I have PMs who will ask me over and over until I give a number and I've learned to stand my ground. Because if I don't, I end up being responsible for the estimate I've given (as I should). Now I make it clear that I will not give a number until I know more. Just a few weeks ago I was asked to give an estimate of how long it would take to do an integration with something I've never used before. I said, "I need 1-3 days to learn the product enough to give an estimate". What I get back is "can't you just give WAG". But this time around I said "You have two choices, 1. you give me time to learn what I need and then I'll give an estimate or, 2. Find someone who already knows the product to give you an estimate"

jolmg 8y ago
To anyone else that doesn't know what WAG is, it's apparently "Wild Ass Guess".
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  I find that SWAG sounds better, and let's you add "Scientific" to the front of it.
  - jolmg 8y ago
    "Scientific Wild Ass Guess" sounds better? I think I'd just stick with "educated guess". I wouldn't even make an acronym out of it.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      "SWAG" sets the expectations much better than "educated guess"- you're saying "I got very little idea, but you really want a number, so here's a number". "Educated guess" sounds much more like you've got a good idea, which using the term "SWAG" is trying to avoid.
      - jolmg 8y ago
        > I got very little idea, but you really want a number, so here's a number Where does the "Scientific" come in? Because I really thought it implied having a good idea, which made SWAG seem like an oxymoron.
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I believe it's juxtaposition for comedic effect.
        kthejoker2 8y ago
        If your guess is a mathematical formula with assumptions for the inputs, those assumptions can be tested and the formula refined ... It's a SWAG. You use things like Average/95/99, t shirt sizing, how much work can be done in parallel, 3rd party/client dependencies, ramp up time for a new library ... it's still a wild assed guess but at least there's some basis in reality and you can defend your estimate - show me what I'm wrong about or missing and I'll revise my formula. Negotiating over the assumptions and inputs is 90% of the battle anyway. Without a model you're standing on sand.
nlawalker 8y ago
>> I end up being responsible for the estimate I've given (as I should) You're not responsible for an estimate you give, the person who's asking for it is. This is the key difference between an estimate and a commitment: If you give someone an estimate, they are responsible for steering the project using that information. If you give someone a commitment, you are responsible for meeting that commitment. This is why very few people actually want estimates. They want commitments, but they will ask for estimates to get an answer and then interpret them as commitments. Most people asked for estimates know this intuitively, thus "doubling and adding 10" and other communication strategies to turn estimates into safe commitments before they are communicated.
Bartweiss 8y ago
> until I give a number One big insight for me, which you obviously put to use in your story, was learning to give a different number. "I don't know" is understandably frustrating to people who are trying to plan work and answer requests. They often respond to that by pushing for a delivery date even when it won't be accurate, but a lot of the time what they fundamentally want is a numerical answer. "I'll have it scoped out by Tuesday", "I need at most 3 days to learn enough to estimate", and so on all aid that planning without committing to a project timeline. That rarely ends the conversation, just as it didn't in your example, but it does a lot to show good faith and justify not answering the initial question.

jolmg 8y ago

To anyone else that doesn't know what WAG is, it's apparently "Wild Ass Guess".

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
I find that SWAG sounds better, and let's you add "Scientific" to the front of it.
- jolmg 8y ago
  "Scientific Wild Ass Guess" sounds better? I think I'd just stick with "educated guess". I wouldn't even make an acronym out of it.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    "SWAG" sets the expectations much better than "educated guess"- you're saying "I got very little idea, but you really want a number, so here's a number". "Educated guess" sounds much more like you've got a good idea, which using the term "SWAG" is trying to avoid.
    - jolmg 8y ago
      > I got very little idea, but you really want a number, so here's a number Where does the "Scientific" come in? Because I really thought it implied having a good idea, which made SWAG seem like an oxymoron.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I believe it's juxtaposition for comedic effect.
      - kthejoker2 8y ago
        If your guess is a mathematical formula with assumptions for the inputs, those assumptions can be tested and the formula refined ... It's a SWAG. You use things like Average/95/99, t shirt sizing, how much work can be done in parallel, 3rd party/client dependencies, ramp up time for a new library ... it's still a wild assed guess but at least there's some basis in reality and you can defend your estimate - show me what I'm wrong about or missing and I'll revise my formula. Negotiating over the assumptions and inputs is 90% of the battle anyway. Without a model you're standing on sand.

nlawalker 8y ago

>> I end up being responsible for the estimate I've given (as I should) You're not responsible for an estimate you give, the person who's asking for it is. This is the key difference between an estimate and a commitment: If you give someone an estimate, they are responsible for steering the project using that information. If you give someone a commitment, you are responsible for meeting that commitment. This is why very few people actually want estimates. They want commitments, but they will ask for estimates to get an answer and then interpret them as commitments. Most people asked for estimates know this intuitively, thus "doubling and adding 10" and other communication strategies to turn estimates into safe commitments before they are communicated.

Bartweiss 8y ago

> until I give a number One big insight for me, which you obviously put to use in your story, was learning to give a different number. "I don't know" is understandably frustrating to people who are trying to plan work and answer requests. They often respond to that by pushing for a delivery date even when it won't be accurate, but a lot of the time what they fundamentally want is a numerical answer. "I'll have it scoped out by Tuesday", "I need at most 3 days to learn enough to estimate", and so on all aid that planning without committing to a project timeline. That rarely ends the conversation, just as it didn't in your example, but it does a lot to show good faith and justify not answering the initial question.