4 ms·

Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? And this reminds me of a time when I

Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? And this reminds me of a time when I built a work bench in the garage. My wife needed to use it for a project she was working on one weekend. She got aggravated and asked why I made it so tall. I didn't have a real good answer for her so I just chuckled and went to work on something else.

isostatic 7y ago
> Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? Yes, which is why if you are building something you need a diverse viewpoint on your team. > And this reminds me of a time when I built a work bench in the garage. My wife needed to use it for a project she was working on one weekend. She got aggravated and asked why I made it so tall. In a professional environment this would be illegal
- umvi 7y ago
  > In a professional environment this would be illegal Why? Humans come in all shapes and sizes. You can't possibly accommodate everybody. I have a sister in law who is 4'7". I have a brother-in-law who is 6'7". Unless the entire workbench is on adjustable legs, it must accommodate one or the other. There is no possible way to accommodate both people comfortably. That's why chairs with adjustable heights were invented.
  - isostatic 7y ago
    Discrimination on the basis of gender is illegal (at least in my country). A work environment that allows the average man to work but not the average woman would most likely be counted as sex discrimination
- grayed-down 7y ago
  Ha! Now you've inspired me. I, and I alone, would like to start manufacturing a line of 43" tall work benches for sale around the globe. I will soon consult my attorney about the legality of manufacturing to this height specification. One month later I will get a bill from her for 5 minutes of her time...spent laughing.
- mises 7y ago
  Really? I get severe neck pain because of the desk height I have. I had to get a note from a doctor for them to let me elevate my monitor at no cost to them. Why don't they manufacture desks at a height comfortable for me? The answer is simple: those of us who are more than one standard deviation from the mean will likely have to deal with the inconveniences that poses. Were there more women in said professional environment, things might change. It's the same issue I have with representation-itis, where every body believes he needs his exact representation in media. "I am in a wheelchair; why aren't more movie characters in wheelchairs? People in wheelchairs can be cool too!". Fine, I'm not saying they can't, but if we did this with every possible person, there would be several billion characters. Another analogy is how people are harmed by a disease and try to convince people to get tested. What they fail to realize is that were we all to be tested for all such things recommended by all such people, we would spend our entire lives in the doctors office. How does this tie back to the issue at hand? Were we to try to accommodate every type of person, we would fail miserably and go broke in the process. Were we to only accommodate one, we would have a lot of unhappy people. So where do we draw the line? I think about one standard deviation (about 2/3 covered well enough) is about right.
  - isostatic 7y ago
    In the Uk that sounds like it would be a DSE regulation breach, and thus illegal. https://www.dse-assessments.co.uk/dse-law-regulations-health-safety/ https://www.dse-assessments.co.uk/dse-law-regulations-health...
    - mises 7y ago
      In America, it's permissible for employers to ask for a doctors note; it's less asking for a doctor's note and more that it's so small and no cost to them.
  - evilotto 7y ago
    > Were there more women in said professional environment, things might change. This is self-fulfilling logic. You're claiming that if women avoid the environment because it's unpleasant, it's acceptable to make the environment unpleasant to women.
TACIXAT 7y ago
I wish they made bathroom sinks taller. It would be nice to not hunch over to wash my hands. Desk height is super important. Extended work hunched over really messes with your back.
- grayed-down 7y ago
  In the US, you can get pre-made bathroom vanities of varying height, or get some nice lumber and raise one yourself.
netsharc 7y ago
There's another Guardian story/commentary about how the team designing subway stations probably didn't have any mothers, because they didn't build any ramps for baby strollers. It's lead to a death of a woman carrying her stroller down some stairs: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Woman-Dies-Fall-Subway-Stairs-Baby-505011161.html https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Woman-Dies-Fall-Subway... Because now the men might scream "feminazi!", how about this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/21/access-denied-disabled-metro-maps-versus-everyone-elses https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/21/access-denied...
lgessler 7y ago
> Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? You say this as if it is inevitable and innocuous. Would you also be so cavalier about it if the axis were not gender but physical or mental disability? This is exactly the problem. If you're an engineer, you need to consider how your users might differ from you, or else your creation will be unusable, if not something worse. Nobody's asking engineers to make their creations universally equitable: that is obviously an infeasible goal most of the time. But they are asking us to try, or even consider it. Even in our comparatively enlightened times there have been many instances of the inexcusable ignorance engineers have shown in the design of their products. Here are just a few examples: - https://gizmodo.com/why-cant-this-soap-dispenser-identify-dark-skin-1797931773 https://gizmodo.com/why-cant-this-soap-dispenser-identify-da... - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... - https://www.wired.com/story/machines-taught-by-photos-learn-a-sexist-view-of-women/ https://www.wired.com/story/machines-taught-by-photos-learn-... To be clear, when you were making your work bench at home, you were doing it in your personal life and not as an engineer, so I don't know if the same arguments might apply to that particular instance. But I do think you could have had a more thoughtful response to your wife.
- grayed-down 7y ago
  I can see in your reply that you have a firm mastery of the obvious along with Engineering 101. I was simply pointing out that men have a different frame of reference than women. > But I do think you could have had a more thoughtful response to your wife. LOL! What are you, my marriage counselor?

isostatic 7y ago

> Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? Yes, which is why if you are building something you need a diverse viewpoint on your team. > And this reminds me of a time when I built a work bench in the garage. My wife needed to use it for a project she was working on one weekend. She got aggravated and asked why I made it so tall. In a professional environment this would be illegal

umvi 7y ago
> In a professional environment this would be illegal Why? Humans come in all shapes and sizes. You can't possibly accommodate everybody. I have a sister in law who is 4'7". I have a brother-in-law who is 6'7". Unless the entire workbench is on adjustable legs, it must accommodate one or the other. There is no possible way to accommodate both people comfortably. That's why chairs with adjustable heights were invented.
- isostatic 7y ago
  Discrimination on the basis of gender is illegal (at least in my country). A work environment that allows the average man to work but not the average woman would most likely be counted as sex discrimination
grayed-down 7y ago
Ha! Now you've inspired me. I, and I alone, would like to start manufacturing a line of 43" tall work benches for sale around the globe. I will soon consult my attorney about the legality of manufacturing to this height specification. One month later I will get a bill from her for 5 minutes of her time...spent laughing.
mises 7y ago
Really? I get severe neck pain because of the desk height I have. I had to get a note from a doctor for them to let me elevate my monitor at no cost to them. Why don't they manufacture desks at a height comfortable for me? The answer is simple: those of us who are more than one standard deviation from the mean will likely have to deal with the inconveniences that poses. Were there more women in said professional environment, things might change. It's the same issue I have with representation-itis, where every body believes he needs his exact representation in media. "I am in a wheelchair; why aren't more movie characters in wheelchairs? People in wheelchairs can be cool too!". Fine, I'm not saying they can't, but if we did this with every possible person, there would be several billion characters. Another analogy is how people are harmed by a disease and try to convince people to get tested. What they fail to realize is that were we all to be tested for all such things recommended by all such people, we would spend our entire lives in the doctors office. How does this tie back to the issue at hand? Were we to try to accommodate every type of person, we would fail miserably and go broke in the process. Were we to only accommodate one, we would have a lot of unhappy people. So where do we draw the line? I think about one standard deviation (about 2/3 covered well enough) is about right.
- isostatic 7y ago
  In the Uk that sounds like it would be a DSE regulation breach, and thus illegal. https://www.dse-assessments.co.uk/dse-law-regulations-health-safety/ https://www.dse-assessments.co.uk/dse-law-regulations-health...
  - mises 7y ago
    In America, it's permissible for employers to ask for a doctors note; it's less asking for a doctor's note and more that it's so small and no cost to them.
- evilotto 7y ago
  > Were there more women in said professional environment, things might change. This is self-fulfilling logic. You're claiming that if women avoid the environment because it's unpleasant, it's acceptable to make the environment unpleasant to women.

TACIXAT 7y ago

I wish they made bathroom sinks taller. It would be nice to not hunch over to wash my hands. Desk height is super important. Extended work hunched over really messes with your back.

grayed-down 7y ago
In the US, you can get pre-made bathroom vanities of varying height, or get some nice lumber and raise one yourself.

netsharc 7y ago

There's another Guardian story/commentary about how the team designing subway stations probably didn't have any mothers, because they didn't build any ramps for baby strollers. It's lead to a death of a woman carrying her stroller down some stairs: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Woman-Dies-Fall-Subway-Stairs-Baby-505011161.html https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Woman-Dies-Fall-Subway... Because now the men might scream "feminazi!", how about this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/21/access-denied-disabled-metro-maps-versus-everyone-elses https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/21/access-denied...

lgessler 7y ago

> Interesting article, but don't men invent and build a lot of things, so they do so with a certain male frame of reference? You say this as if it is inevitable and innocuous. Would you also be so cavalier about it if the axis were not gender but physical or mental disability? This is exactly the problem. If you're an engineer, you need to consider how your users might differ from you, or else your creation will be unusable, if not something worse. Nobody's asking engineers to make their creations universally equitable: that is obviously an infeasible goal most of the time. But they are asking us to try, or even consider it. Even in our comparatively enlightened times there have been many instances of the inexcusable ignorance engineers have shown in the design of their products. Here are just a few examples: - https://gizmodo.com/why-cant-this-soap-dispenser-identify-dark-skin-1797931773 https://gizmodo.com/why-cant-this-soap-dispenser-identify-da... - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... - https://www.wired.com/story/machines-taught-by-photos-learn-a-sexist-view-of-women/ https://www.wired.com/story/machines-taught-by-photos-learn-... To be clear, when you were making your work bench at home, you were doing it in your personal life and not as an engineer, so I don't know if the same arguments might apply to that particular instance. But I do think you could have had a more thoughtful response to your wife.

grayed-down 7y ago
I can see in your reply that you have a firm mastery of the obvious along with Engineering 101. I was simply pointing out that men have a different frame of reference than women. > But I do think you could have had a more thoughtful response to your wife. LOL! What are you, my marriage counselor?