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Let's assume that the goal is to rebuild Notre Dame as authentically as possible, except for whatever changes are absolutely necessary for modern safety standar

Let's assume that the goal is to rebuild Notre Dame as authentically as possible, except for whatever changes are absolutely necessary for modern safety standards (fire control; toxicity of paints; etc.) And that includes using the same kinds/maturities of wood, same kinds of marble, same wood varnish, etc. And let's assume that we're okay with modern building methods (such as cranes) as long as the results are the same. Do we still have access to all of the specialized knowledge that went into that building? E.g., stone masonry, wood carving, preparation of varnishes, etc.? And is there enough supply of the required building/decorating materials? Does the world currently have enough qualified artisans to allow construction at some "acceptable" pace? Heck, do modern governments and Parisians even have the patience for a multi-decade construction project to succeed?

JackFr 8y ago
At the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in NYC (at least as of a few years ago), they train their own stone masons, because they just don't really exist.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Buildings like this are under permanent renovation so Paris should be used to it and the expertise should be available too. I have been to Paris quite a few times and as far as I remember there're was some scaffolding going on every time I was there.
flr03 8y ago
I was about to write about how big a challenge it will be, not only in term of engineering and craftsmanship but also in a social point of view. French people are keen to debate any kind of topic, and this one will be a tough one, with tensions around the origin of foundings and how it should be repaired.
NotPaidToPost 8y ago
They do for the most part because there is always conservation and renovation work going on somewhere. It is in fact likely that the fire was caused by the renovation work that was ongoing...
bluGill 8y ago
We think so. There are a lot of people who practice different historical building methods scattered around. We think the knowledge exists, but it is only a think - some of it was passed on for craftsman to craftsman and who knows what changed over the years. In some cases the pass on step was lost. In both a lot of history research happens which helps us think we have figured out how it was done but we cannot ever be sure. I know a lot of people who leave their day job in high tech to practice some low tech old method. There are also a few who work at museums who show the old methods. Getting these people to leave there day job for a few years is probably not affordable. For example I know how to plane by hand boards just like they did - but for my time you would have to pay me $100 to make a 2x4- or you can go to Home Depot and buy the already planed 2x4 for $3. (Note that my 2x4 would be made to fit, while the home depot the rest of the building is designed to fit - this means the architects verifying that everything is strong enough can actually work with a 2x4 in advance, but my made to fit board needs to be measured after to make sure it doesn't change the calculations of something elsewhere in the system)
bradstewart 8y ago
I'm trying to find the tweet again, but I read that they've been "farming" the oak trees required to replace all of the wood in Notre Dame at Versailles for the last 150 years or so. Paris seemingly has good contingency plans for events like this. EDIT: https://twitter.com/_theek_/status/1117895531563372544 https://twitter.com/_theek_/status/1117895531563372544
- Luc 8y ago
  I don't think this story checks out. I'm sure they have some eligible oaks at Versailles but the roof needs ~13,000 of them. Hence why they called the latticework 'the forest'. The largest oak forest operator in France has offered to find the trees needed: https://mobile.francetvinfo.fr/culture/patrimoine/incendie-de-notre-dame-de-paris/notre-dame-de-paris-un-exploitant-forestier-francais-offre-du-bois-pour-la-reconstruction_3400571.html#xtref=https://www.google.com/ https://mobile.francetvinfo.fr/culture/patrimoine/incendie-d...
  - bradstewart 8y ago
    Good call. I meant to say that I had no way of verifying that tweet. Still interesting to think about though.
  - count 8y ago
    The Versailles oaks are for the Steeple only, not the whole roof (which needs the 13k).
- burfog 8y ago
  That would be something to replace with something that can't burn. Stainless steel is the obvious, aluminum and plain steel are nice aside from corrosion, and of course one could spend the money for titanium.
treis 8y ago
>Do we still have access to all of the specialized knowledge that went into that building? E.g., stone masonry, wood carving, preparation of varnishes, etc.? It's not like we've stopped building things out of stone or carving and varnishing wood. The trouble is not building these structures. We can relatively easily and inexpensively build a new Notre Dame. The expense comes from restoring the old items and trying to seemlessly integrate replacements when absolutely necessary.
lqet 8y ago
Of course. The Frauenkirche in Dresden (while not as old as Notre Dame) was rebuilt basically from scratch a few years ago in record time [0]. Freiburg minster [1], which was completed around 1300, recently had a restoration of its spire (which took about 12 years), done with the original medieval technique of interlocking the stones with lead anchors. There is a very good 8 minute video about the work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egVOaTrRYZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egVOaTrRYZ4 Don't forget that big cathedrals have to be worked on constantly, so most of the European cathedrals have very old workshops attached to the church, where the knowledge was (and still is) passed down over centuries. These people usually have very strong opinions regarding craftsmanship and work quality. They don't want their colleagues in 250 years to think badly of them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster
- anoncake 8y ago
  The Frauenkirche actually was modified to make it more robust. For example, they added additional anchors to the dome.
thatfrenchguy 8y ago
“Do we still have access to all of the specialized knowledge that went into that building? E.g., stone masonry, wood carving, preparation of varnishes, etc.? And is there enough supply of the required building/decorating materials? ” France has dozens of cathedrals being restored at any given time (don’t forget that we have 1000x more old buildings than the number foreign tourists go to :-) ), restorations that often take 5-10 years. I wouldn’t be too worried about not having the skill set.
- philwelch 8y ago
  Also keep in mind that our best guess is that the previous attempt to restore Notre Dame is what started the fire in the first place.

JackFr 8y ago

At the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in NYC (at least as of a few years ago), they train their own stone masons, because they just don't really exist.

maxxxxx 8y ago

Buildings like this are under permanent renovation so Paris should be used to it and the expertise should be available too. I have been to Paris quite a few times and as far as I remember there're was some scaffolding going on every time I was there.

flr03 8y ago

I was about to write about how big a challenge it will be, not only in term of engineering and craftsmanship but also in a social point of view. French people are keen to debate any kind of topic, and this one will be a tough one, with tensions around the origin of foundings and how it should be repaired.

NotPaidToPost 8y ago

They do for the most part because there is always conservation and renovation work going on somewhere. It is in fact likely that the fire was caused by the renovation work that was ongoing...

bluGill 8y ago

We think so. There are a lot of people who practice different historical building methods scattered around. We think the knowledge exists, but it is only a think - some of it was passed on for craftsman to craftsman and who knows what changed over the years. In some cases the pass on step was lost. In both a lot of history research happens which helps us think we have figured out how it was done but we cannot ever be sure. I know a lot of people who leave their day job in high tech to practice some low tech old method. There are also a few who work at museums who show the old methods. Getting these people to leave there day job for a few years is probably not affordable. For example I know how to plane by hand boards just like they did - but for my time you would have to pay me $100 to make a 2x4- or you can go to Home Depot and buy the already planed 2x4 for $3. (Note that my 2x4 would be made to fit, while the home depot the rest of the building is designed to fit - this means the architects verifying that everything is strong enough can actually work with a 2x4 in advance, but my made to fit board needs to be measured after to make sure it doesn't change the calculations of something elsewhere in the system)

bradstewart 8y ago

I'm trying to find the tweet again, but I read that they've been "farming" the oak trees required to replace all of the wood in Notre Dame at Versailles for the last 150 years or so. Paris seemingly has good contingency plans for events like this. EDIT: https://twitter.com/_theek_/status/1117895531563372544 https://twitter.com/_theek_/status/1117895531563372544

Luc 8y ago
I don't think this story checks out. I'm sure they have some eligible oaks at Versailles but the roof needs ~13,000 of them. Hence why they called the latticework 'the forest'. The largest oak forest operator in France has offered to find the trees needed: https://mobile.francetvinfo.fr/culture/patrimoine/incendie-de-notre-dame-de-paris/notre-dame-de-paris-un-exploitant-forestier-francais-offre-du-bois-pour-la-reconstruction_3400571.html#xtref=https://www.google.com/ https://mobile.francetvinfo.fr/culture/patrimoine/incendie-d...
- bradstewart 8y ago
  Good call. I meant to say that I had no way of verifying that tweet. Still interesting to think about though.
- count 8y ago
  The Versailles oaks are for the Steeple only, not the whole roof (which needs the 13k).
burfog 8y ago
That would be something to replace with something that can't burn. Stainless steel is the obvious, aluminum and plain steel are nice aside from corrosion, and of course one could spend the money for titanium.

treis 8y ago

>Do we still have access to all of the specialized knowledge that went into that building? E.g., stone masonry, wood carving, preparation of varnishes, etc.? It's not like we've stopped building things out of stone or carving and varnishing wood. The trouble is not building these structures. We can relatively easily and inexpensively build a new Notre Dame. The expense comes from restoring the old items and trying to seemlessly integrate replacements when absolutely necessary.

lqet 8y ago

Of course. The Frauenkirche in Dresden (while not as old as Notre Dame) was rebuilt basically from scratch a few years ago in record time [0]. Freiburg minster [1], which was completed around 1300, recently had a restoration of its spire (which took about 12 years), done with the original medieval technique of interlocking the stones with lead anchors. There is a very good 8 minute video about the work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egVOaTrRYZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egVOaTrRYZ4 Don't forget that big cathedrals have to be worked on constantly, so most of the European cathedrals have very old workshops attached to the church, where the knowledge was (and still is) passed down over centuries. These people usually have very strong opinions regarding craftsmanship and work quality. They don't want their colleagues in 250 years to think badly of them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster

anoncake 8y ago
The Frauenkirche actually was modified to make it more robust. For example, they added additional anchors to the dome.

thatfrenchguy 8y ago

“Do we still have access to all of the specialized knowledge that went into that building? E.g., stone masonry, wood carving, preparation of varnishes, etc.? And is there enough supply of the required building/decorating materials? ” France has dozens of cathedrals being restored at any given time (don’t forget that we have 1000x more old buildings than the number foreign tourists go to :-) ), restorations that often take 5-10 years. I wouldn’t be too worried about not having the skill set.

philwelch 8y ago
Also keep in mind that our best guess is that the previous attempt to restore Notre Dame is what started the fire in the first place.