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> We will realise that describing data and calculations using the Given-When-Then format leads to tragedy, and will create and popularise tools and approaches u

> We will realise that describing data and calculations using the Given-When-Then format leads to tragedy, and will create and popularise tools and approaches using Excel to document examples. Given all the examples given, it sounds more like Cucumber is the problem. Having specifications/tests written in the form of given-when-then isn't shown to have any issues. Rather, taking those specs/requirements and disconnecting them from the people who need them is the issue.

thom 8y ago
Is the complaint literally just about aligning the text in tables of a Cucumber file because business analysts are more comfortable in Excel? Or just managing the text of your test suite across a whole project? I am struggling to parse out the underlying point of the article.
- anentropic 8y ago
  What I understood is: You are supposed to capture requirements in Given/When/Then form before coding, and they should be written in a way that is independent of the implementation The complaint seems to be that what happens in practice is "the devs have taken over" the system, so Cucumber just becomes a test automation software This has led to writing tests in Given/When/Then format which test overly specific elements of the implementation, and are often written after the fact, instead of as a way to capture requirements. And some other stuff, but that's primarily what I got out of it.
  - tannhaeuser 8y ago
    > the devs have taken over [authoring tests] That's what happened in the projects where I used fitnesse, jbehave, cucumber, etc. The users couldn't understand the artifacts and what they're supposed to do, and the tools were highly idiosyncratic. It ended in becoming just yet another hassle for developers.
    - pcm191 8y ago
      Exactly. Whereas using Excel for specification of calculations (by Business Users or Business Analysts) actually brings the business and developers closer together, removing the need for intermediaries. Business Users are very happy using Excel and checking calculations etc. as it tends to be their home environment.
ben509 8y ago
The GWT problem and Cucumber's issues remind me of COBOL or even AppleScript. They worked out an English-like syntax that looks great in a demo, but winds up being harder to write code in than most other programming languages. And the reason seems to be that it's requiring us to express ideas in a vastly simplified language. In order to do that, we have to expand a complex idea to many simpler ideas. That's making us do the job of the compiler! Real high-level languages are rich with many idioms and structures and the compiler then reduces that to simpler ISA.
maxxxxx 8y ago
You just have to look for 10 minutes at Cucumber and what's needed to make it work and you'll see that it's simply a bad idea. It's the same nonsense as generating code from UML or visual coding. Looks good to the non programmer but horrible to work with.

thom 8y ago

Is the complaint literally just about aligning the text in tables of a Cucumber file because business analysts are more comfortable in Excel? Or just managing the text of your test suite across a whole project? I am struggling to parse out the underlying point of the article.

anentropic 8y ago
What I understood is: You are supposed to capture requirements in Given/When/Then form before coding, and they should be written in a way that is independent of the implementation The complaint seems to be that what happens in practice is "the devs have taken over" the system, so Cucumber just becomes a test automation software This has led to writing tests in Given/When/Then format which test overly specific elements of the implementation, and are often written after the fact, instead of as a way to capture requirements. And some other stuff, but that's primarily what I got out of it.
- tannhaeuser 8y ago
  > the devs have taken over [authoring tests] That's what happened in the projects where I used fitnesse, jbehave, cucumber, etc. The users couldn't understand the artifacts and what they're supposed to do, and the tools were highly idiosyncratic. It ended in becoming just yet another hassle for developers.
  - pcm191 8y ago
    Exactly. Whereas using Excel for specification of calculations (by Business Users or Business Analysts) actually brings the business and developers closer together, removing the need for intermediaries. Business Users are very happy using Excel and checking calculations etc. as it tends to be their home environment.

ben509 8y ago

The GWT problem and Cucumber's issues remind me of COBOL or even AppleScript. They worked out an English-like syntax that looks great in a demo, but winds up being harder to write code in than most other programming languages. And the reason seems to be that it's requiring us to express ideas in a vastly simplified language. In order to do that, we have to expand a complex idea to many simpler ideas. That's making us do the job of the compiler! Real high-level languages are rich with many idioms and structures and the compiler then reduces that to simpler ISA.

maxxxxx 8y ago

You just have to look for 10 minutes at Cucumber and what's needed to make it work and you'll see that it's simply a bad idea. It's the same nonsense as generating code from UML or visual coding. Looks good to the non programmer but horrible to work with.