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You've shifted responsibility from the large scale producers of industrial waste to the individual consumer. Consumers do bear some responsibility for the curre

You've shifted responsibility from the large scale producers of industrial waste to the individual consumer. Consumers do bear some responsibility for the current state of things, but the slow rogue AIs we've built called "corporations" bear the brunt of the responsibility. Trying to convince individuals to stop using single-use plastic bags is a losing battle. Creating a regulatory environment that makes the manufacturing and distribution of single use plastic bags difficult could actually help.

cageface 8y ago
Corporations have done a pretty good job of misleading and distracting consumers, but it's not like the information isn't out there. I'm inclined to put at least half the blame on the people voting with their wallets here.
- Retra 8y ago
  Most people don't have reasonable alternatives or any way to override the instinctual social mechanisms that drive their behavior.
  - chessturk 8y ago
    Not to mention monopolies/oligopolies prevent real choice with most products. No one can DIY everything.
    - npsimons 8y ago
      > No one can DIY everything. Well, technically they can, it's just that that sort of lifestyle is unrecognizable to us today, and would basically take all your time. They would be totally left behind by modern society, ie hermits.
      - chessturk 8y ago
        I mean you're right in a unabomber type sense (i.e. living in a log cabin trapping small animals), but if I wanted to build my own smartphone from scratch, my whole lifetime is spent extracting materials to build the equipment required for making the smartphone. Even if I somehow made the smartphone, I would have immediately violated some patent law. Even if I were a globe trotting immortal, I cannot legally DIY most common electronics because of patent law.
        code_duck 8y ago
        Sure you can. You just can’t sell the item.
  - justaguyhere 8y ago
    That is true, but it is also true that most people who do have reasonable alternatives still don't take advantage of them. This could be due to laziness, inertia but mostly I'd guess comfort level. We live in a society where people yell at McDonalds employees if their stupid chicken nuggets isn't available one day, out of 5,000 days they've eaten there. Point being, most of us have become too comfortable and expect too much, while not doing enough ourselves at the same time.
    - Retra 8y ago
      Most of these things are very hard to analyze. Let me give you a real-life example. This winter, my driveway developed some major cracks from the snow melt. How can I solve this problem responsibly? Not fix it? Then I have to park on the street and drive my car unnecessarily to keep it out of the way of the plow. I will end up with craters and mud slide in my yard, a useless garage, and I'll probably have to fix it anyway if I want to use/resell my property. Move to a warmer climate? Then someone else moves into my house and we've wasted resources just shuffling people about. So what I will probably do is go to a company that does driveway repair and have them fix it, because then the space is usable and I don't have to change my whole life or live with a dangerous/ugly pit in my yard. But I can't tell you if they will do it efficiently. They're the experts, so obviously they know more than I do. What would you do? What would anybody do? How am I supposed to both identify an environmentally-friendly alternative and muster the courage to act on it?
      - justaguyhere 8y ago
        What would you do? What would anybody do? I don't have an answer to this specific scenario that you described. That said, I wasn't saying we should all suddenly become 100% socially responsible overnight - it is just not practical. There are lots of things that are super easy to do, and yet have positive influence on the environment, society etc. We can keep a handful of cloth bags handy, when we go grocery shopping. This isn't hard to do, and will help reduce plastic bags. We don't have to wait for legislation to act on this. We don't have to replace our perfectly working phone, every other year (or every year) and throw it in the landfill. And so on. These are definitely small compared to the pollution caused by corporations. But corporations exist to sell to consumers. Plus, change has to start somewhere. Why not start at home?
- porpoisemonkey 8y ago
  > I'm inclined to put at least half the blame on the people voting with their wallets here. I don't agree. The sheer volume of information that's available in the public space and the size and scope of large corporations makes "voting with their wallets" impractical.
- folkrav 8y ago
  There's a huge proportion of the population that doesn't even have the luxury of voting with their wallets because the only thing they can afford is the cheapest possible. Cost of living has gone significantly up in the last two or three decades. Also a bunch of companies out there are actually under some megacorp. Have fun completely cutting off Nestle or Unilever out of your life[0], for example. The information is there, but it's delusional to think everyone can manage to avoid all these brands altogether for various reasons (access to alternatives, price vs. income, etc.). [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/companies-control-everything-you-buy-kelloggs-nestle-unilever-a7666731.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/companies-control-e...
- mkane848 8y ago
  Easy to tell people to vote with their wallet, harder to provide them with real alternatives.
joyeuse6701 8y ago
I understand your point, though I think the single-use plastic bag argument isn't a great one [1] [1] https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotton-totes-might-be-worse-than-plastic/ https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotto...
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  This article explicitly says: > This assessment does not take marine litter into account—so as far as that gigantic problem is concerned, plastics are almost certainly the worst

cageface 8y ago

Corporations have done a pretty good job of misleading and distracting consumers, but it's not like the information isn't out there. I'm inclined to put at least half the blame on the people voting with their wallets here.

Retra 8y ago
Most people don't have reasonable alternatives or any way to override the instinctual social mechanisms that drive their behavior.
- chessturk 8y ago
  Not to mention monopolies/oligopolies prevent real choice with most products. No one can DIY everything.
  - npsimons 8y ago
    > No one can DIY everything. Well, technically they can, it's just that that sort of lifestyle is unrecognizable to us today, and would basically take all your time. They would be totally left behind by modern society, ie hermits.
    - chessturk 8y ago
      I mean you're right in a unabomber type sense (i.e. living in a log cabin trapping small animals), but if I wanted to build my own smartphone from scratch, my whole lifetime is spent extracting materials to build the equipment required for making the smartphone. Even if I somehow made the smartphone, I would have immediately violated some patent law. Even if I were a globe trotting immortal, I cannot legally DIY most common electronics because of patent law.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        Sure you can. You just can’t sell the item.
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  That is true, but it is also true that most people who do have reasonable alternatives still don't take advantage of them. This could be due to laziness, inertia but mostly I'd guess comfort level. We live in a society where people yell at McDonalds employees if their stupid chicken nuggets isn't available one day, out of 5,000 days they've eaten there. Point being, most of us have become too comfortable and expect too much, while not doing enough ourselves at the same time.
  - Retra 8y ago
    Most of these things are very hard to analyze. Let me give you a real-life example. This winter, my driveway developed some major cracks from the snow melt. How can I solve this problem responsibly? Not fix it? Then I have to park on the street and drive my car unnecessarily to keep it out of the way of the plow. I will end up with craters and mud slide in my yard, a useless garage, and I'll probably have to fix it anyway if I want to use/resell my property. Move to a warmer climate? Then someone else moves into my house and we've wasted resources just shuffling people about. So what I will probably do is go to a company that does driveway repair and have them fix it, because then the space is usable and I don't have to change my whole life or live with a dangerous/ugly pit in my yard. But I can't tell you if they will do it efficiently. They're the experts, so obviously they know more than I do. What would you do? What would anybody do? How am I supposed to both identify an environmentally-friendly alternative and muster the courage to act on it?
    - justaguyhere 8y ago
      What would you do? What would anybody do? I don't have an answer to this specific scenario that you described. That said, I wasn't saying we should all suddenly become 100% socially responsible overnight - it is just not practical. There are lots of things that are super easy to do, and yet have positive influence on the environment, society etc. We can keep a handful of cloth bags handy, when we go grocery shopping. This isn't hard to do, and will help reduce plastic bags. We don't have to wait for legislation to act on this. We don't have to replace our perfectly working phone, every other year (or every year) and throw it in the landfill. And so on. These are definitely small compared to the pollution caused by corporations. But corporations exist to sell to consumers. Plus, change has to start somewhere. Why not start at home?
porpoisemonkey 8y ago
> I'm inclined to put at least half the blame on the people voting with their wallets here. I don't agree. The sheer volume of information that's available in the public space and the size and scope of large corporations makes "voting with their wallets" impractical.
folkrav 8y ago
There's a huge proportion of the population that doesn't even have the luxury of voting with their wallets because the only thing they can afford is the cheapest possible. Cost of living has gone significantly up in the last two or three decades. Also a bunch of companies out there are actually under some megacorp. Have fun completely cutting off Nestle or Unilever out of your life[0], for example. The information is there, but it's delusional to think everyone can manage to avoid all these brands altogether for various reasons (access to alternatives, price vs. income, etc.). [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/companies-control-everything-you-buy-kelloggs-nestle-unilever-a7666731.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/companies-control-e...
mkane848 8y ago
Easy to tell people to vote with their wallet, harder to provide them with real alternatives.

joyeuse6701 8y ago

I understand your point, though I think the single-use plastic bag argument isn't a great one [1] [1] https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotton-totes-might-be-worse-than-plastic/ https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotto...

jniedrauer 8y ago
This article explicitly says: > This assessment does not take marine litter into account—so as far as that gigantic problem is concerned, plastics are almost certainly the worst