4 ms·

Honestly curious: why did Bouman get the credit she did? According to Github, she didn't commit nearly as much code, 2.5k LOC vs 850k lines. I understand she

by mises 8y ago

Honestly curious: why did Bouman get the credit she did? According to Github, she didn't commit nearly as much code, 2.5k LOC vs 850k lines. I understand she migut have had a greater role in management etc.; my point is more that it was a team effort (which she reiterated). Is this a case of the media trying to "celebrate diversity" by unfairly cutting out the whole team which accomplished something incredible? Or is she just the public face and responsible for their media presence?

eloisant 8y ago
Because that's how the world works, project leaders get fame and line workers don't. Somehow people are OK when Elon Musk gets credit for Tesla and SpaceX, Steve Jobs for the iPhone but suddenly if it's a women people will dig the github accounts.
- mises 8y ago
  I looked because I saw discussion about it elsewhere; I wasn't just digging. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/katie-bouman-black-hole/587137/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/katie-bo.... "Bouman stood out as a role model for young women and girls working in or aspiring to jobs in male-dominated science fields. A round of stories celebrated Bouman’s work on the algorithms that forged a mesmerizing photograph from a vat of telescope data. She was a symbol of female empowerment". This is why people started asking questions. She wasn't put out there as a scientist who was part of a team that did something really interesting, she was put out there as a "symbol of female empowerment". In other words, she was advertised not as a scientist who made a cool discovery and happened to be a woman but as a woman who did something that happened to be in science. I don't like that sort of thing.
  - baq 8y ago
    If this symbol of female empowerment makes girls pursue careers in science then I’m cool with a bit of women glorification.
    - mises 8y ago
      I don't think we should be glorifying any specific group, nor should we be trying to specifically trying to push a certain type of person into science.
- MarkMc 8y ago
  I don't think the Elon Musk or Steve Jobs analogy is accurate. Katie Bouman was co-leader of one of four imaging teams on the project. It seems to me the other person who co-led that team deserves equal praise and fame, and perhaps also the leaders of the other 3 teams. Having said that, the look of excitement and joy on Dr Bouman's face in that photo is so lovely and relatable that the pic was always destined to go viral. So in that sense you could say she was bound to become the human face of the project.
- etxm 8y ago
  Cue responses from the butthole brigade.
- posterboy 8y ago
  Really nobody thinks Steve Jobs build the IPhone all alone in a work shop.
DanBC 8y ago
She is credited because she did the work. It's telling that when it's a woman getting the credit you're hanging on about teams, but when it's a man getting credit you say nothing. https://mobile.twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116518544961830918 https://mobile.twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/11165185449...
- black-tea 8y ago
  We totally call bullshit every time when a man unduly gets credit. You can't see that because you are the sexist one. You really care that Bouman is a woman.
ajuc 8y ago
> Is this a case of the media trying to "celebrate diversity" There are several similar releases every year. Finding the Higgs boson. Landing the Rosetta stone lander on a comet. Launching a new kid of a rocket. Were you questioning people doing these releases the same way? Why not? Is it maybe because they were of the expected gender? Before accusing people of biases it's best to examine yourself.
- jsgo 8y ago
  My guess is because the people who found the Higgs boson, landed the lander on the comet, etc. are for all intents and purposes not well known: there wasn't a lot of fanfare for them so much as the discovery. As such, people are oddly upset about her getting praise for this. I look at it two ways: one, what she did was not insignificant. Whether she received more praise than someone discovering something else that happened to be a guy, not a concern that is going to cause me to lose sleep at night nor is it something she should be punished for. Two, if her story getting bubbled up inspires girls (or anyone, I suppose) to get involved in or at least more interested in the sciences, hell, I'd say we're all better for it.
  - saalweachter 8y ago
    I mean, even if you believe that all gender (and minority in general) issues have been solved in the sciences, as of [pick arbitrary date between 1980 and 2019], and there is no longer any dismissal, harassment, or discouragement of women pursuing a career in the sciences, I think we as a society can handle another forty, fifty years of rubbing every "see? Women can too do science as well as the menfolk" achievement in the metaphorical face of the centuries of dismissing women as by-and-large sub-intelligent creatures not temperamentally suited to any serious intellectual work. Even if it is completely unnecessary nowadays, because women are no longer dismissed, individually or collectively, as not contributing to science, because women are no longer harassed, sexually or misogynistically, when they try to pursue a career in science, I still think it's fair to let people glory for awhile longer in achieving what people once thought they wouldn't, even if most of the disbelievers are centuries dead and hardly any of them are still alive and posting on the internet.
sctb 8y ago
Please don't drag us down into previous hells. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by mises 8y ago

eloisant 8y ago

Because that's how the world works, project leaders get fame and line workers don't. Somehow people are OK when Elon Musk gets credit for Tesla and SpaceX, Steve Jobs for the iPhone but suddenly if it's a women people will dig the github accounts.

mises 8y ago
I looked because I saw discussion about it elsewhere; I wasn't just digging. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/katie-bouman-black-hole/587137/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/katie-bo.... "Bouman stood out as a role model for young women and girls working in or aspiring to jobs in male-dominated science fields. A round of stories celebrated Bouman’s work on the algorithms that forged a mesmerizing photograph from a vat of telescope data. She was a symbol of female empowerment". This is why people started asking questions. She wasn't put out there as a scientist who was part of a team that did something really interesting, she was put out there as a "symbol of female empowerment". In other words, she was advertised not as a scientist who made a cool discovery and happened to be a woman but as a woman who did something that happened to be in science. I don't like that sort of thing.
- baq 8y ago
  If this symbol of female empowerment makes girls pursue careers in science then I’m cool with a bit of women glorification.
  - mises 8y ago
    I don't think we should be glorifying any specific group, nor should we be trying to specifically trying to push a certain type of person into science.
MarkMc 8y ago
I don't think the Elon Musk or Steve Jobs analogy is accurate. Katie Bouman was co-leader of one of four imaging teams on the project. It seems to me the other person who co-led that team deserves equal praise and fame, and perhaps also the leaders of the other 3 teams. Having said that, the look of excitement and joy on Dr Bouman's face in that photo is so lovely and relatable that the pic was always destined to go viral. So in that sense you could say she was bound to become the human face of the project.
etxm 8y ago
Cue responses from the butthole brigade.
posterboy 8y ago
Really nobody thinks Steve Jobs build the IPhone all alone in a work shop.

DanBC 8y ago

She is credited because she did the work. It's telling that when it's a woman getting the credit you're hanging on about teams, but when it's a man getting credit you say nothing. https://mobile.twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116518544961830918 https://mobile.twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/11165185449...

black-tea 8y ago
We totally call bullshit every time when a man unduly gets credit. You can't see that because you are the sexist one. You really care that Bouman is a woman.

ajuc 8y ago

> Is this a case of the media trying to "celebrate diversity" There are several similar releases every year. Finding the Higgs boson. Landing the Rosetta stone lander on a comet. Launching a new kid of a rocket. Were you questioning people doing these releases the same way? Why not? Is it maybe because they were of the expected gender? Before accusing people of biases it's best to examine yourself.

jsgo 8y ago
My guess is because the people who found the Higgs boson, landed the lander on the comet, etc. are for all intents and purposes not well known: there wasn't a lot of fanfare for them so much as the discovery. As such, people are oddly upset about her getting praise for this. I look at it two ways: one, what she did was not insignificant. Whether she received more praise than someone discovering something else that happened to be a guy, not a concern that is going to cause me to lose sleep at night nor is it something she should be punished for. Two, if her story getting bubbled up inspires girls (or anyone, I suppose) to get involved in or at least more interested in the sciences, hell, I'd say we're all better for it.
- saalweachter 8y ago
  I mean, even if you believe that all gender (and minority in general) issues have been solved in the sciences, as of [pick arbitrary date between 1980 and 2019], and there is no longer any dismissal, harassment, or discouragement of women pursuing a career in the sciences, I think we as a society can handle another forty, fifty years of rubbing every "see? Women can too do science as well as the menfolk" achievement in the metaphorical face of the centuries of dismissing women as by-and-large sub-intelligent creatures not temperamentally suited to any serious intellectual work. Even if it is completely unnecessary nowadays, because women are no longer dismissed, individually or collectively, as not contributing to science, because women are no longer harassed, sexually or misogynistically, when they try to pursue a career in science, I still think it's fair to let people glory for awhile longer in achieving what people once thought they wouldn't, even if most of the disbelievers are centuries dead and hardly any of them are still alive and posting on the internet.

sctb 8y ago

Please don't drag us down into previous hells. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html