7 ms·

The solution is simple. Lower the speed limit to 20kph, wait for the ripple to disappear and slowly raise the limit to 100kph. The reason this doesn't work in r

The solution is simple. Lower the speed limit to 20kph, wait for the ripple to disappear and slowly raise the limit to 100kph. The reason this doesn't work in real life is lack of dynamic signage and because people don't adhere to the speed limit.

ygra 7y ago
Mostly the latter, in my experience. Germany has dynamic signage on several highways, but if the sign says 80 (even with a secondary sign notifying of traffic jams), most people will still drive 160 if it doesn't look congested yet.
- pandemic_region 7y ago
  The ones still driving 160 are mostly foreign drivers in my experience. Most German drivers obey the speed limits. Note I'm not German but often drive through it.
  - ygra 7y ago
    Admittedly, the 160 was exaggerated. But as a German who does obey the speed limit, my experience seems to be that most drivers don't.
    - choeger 7y ago
      Because you never notice all the other cars that do. They travel as fast as you, so their distance remains constant. You only notice cars going slower or faster than you.
  - atoav 7y ago
    As somebody who was using the Autobahn quite a lot I’d say most people go between 120 and 160 when there is no speed limit. But it depend on the conditions
- dx034 7y ago
  From experience this is rare. 20kph above the limit is standard (and probably expected by the system setting speed limits), 80 over would cost your license for several months.
  - ygra 7y ago
    Admittedly, 160 was exaggerated. But on stretches where there's no speed limit and you suddenly get this 80 km/h along with Stau signs, people tend to still drive 120 if there's no visible congestion. Since those dynamic limits are not really enforced (most speed cameras tend to be in places where there's a fixed limit at all times) there's rarely a downside to drivers. Same as with driving 80 in construction sites instead of the 60 that's signed.
    - cheschire 7y ago
      This is starting to change now that the polizei have started leaving mobile panzerblitzers in place for several days at a time. I've noticed in the last few months significantly more respect for changes in speed limits from the folks with local license plates.
- matt4077 7y ago
  That’s simply not true. Most people don’t even drive 160kph to begin with.
  - Faaak 7y ago
    In some parts of the highway is very plausible. Even 200km/hour and more
    - matt4077 7y ago
      People seem to have some terrible difficulty of understanding the difference b/w “Most people don’t do <x>”, and “It’s theoretically possible to do <x>”.
      - lovemenot 7y ago
        People seem to have some terrible difficulty ... All / most / some people? Or just the person you responded to?
        xiphias2 7y ago
        There are multiple reason why the way people communicate is important, one of which is the limited logical reasoning capability of most people. Just look at politics / marketing / dark patterns / mortgage contracts. I successfully changed my sister's mind from variable rate mortgage to fixed mortgage, as the language of the contract doesn't explicitly write how bad the worst case option can be 10 years from now for variable rate mortgage.
  - Moru 7y ago
    That depends on what country you live in. Some areas in Germany, 200 km/h is no problem for hours straight.
    - matt4077 7y ago
      I live in Germany. And what you’re saying is (a) wrong, and (b) not even incompatible what I said.
mariefred 7y ago
Wow, works like magic ! Actually Swedish drivers are somewhat more obedient and indeed traffic problems are due to road hazards are on average less severe. For example when Swedes sees a lower speed sign or even just a warning before a road block they will slow and stay in one long lane, while in the mid eastern country I live in until recently everyone just speeds up trying to be first to pass the blocking. The results ? smoother flow and shorter queues, guess where ?
- interfixus 7y ago
  Swedish drivers are indeed obedient. Overly so, at times. I live in a heavily touristed part of Denmark - we get a lot of Swedish and German cars in the summerish half of the year. And I have long since learned to stay well clear of the Swedes whenever possible. They're too often going that extra bit too slow, adhering slightly too rigorously to every rule, not getting into the flow, too often being front Volvo going 70, the rest of us lined up behind, wanting to go home at 80 like the sign says.
jgtrosh 7y ago
In supercomputers, there are such mechanisms for reactive congestion management: messages are sent to emitters to temporarily reduce flow. It works at small network scale but doesn't scale up, because congestion can happen often and for short times, and the latency of reaction is similar to the latency of events means you are not reacting to congestion anymore, you're just reducing global bandwidth. To this day the best practical mitigation strategies are great deterministic load balancing, QoS through virtual channels and fine-tuned adaptive routing. The analogy with traffic doesn't really hold though, because we can theoretically propagate throttling instructions faster than the vehicles involved, and the problem lies more with getting instructions applied at all. Just thought giving some overview of a similar problem would give some food for thought.
- FigmentEngine 7y ago
  see also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpressure_routing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpressure_routing
- takk309 7y ago
  In a sense this sort of adaptive throttling does exist in traffic flow via ramp metering. Upstream sensors detect the traffic density and the signal at the ramp is adjusted to allow only enough traffic to bring the freeway up to capacity.
herghost 7y ago
This gives me a newfound respect for variable speed signs on UK motorways (NB. not the actual speed limit signs, the black signs with the white matrix of bulbs giving advisory speeds). To-date, if you see a sign saying "40", that basically means there's no traffic flow and you will have to come to a stop very shortly. If you see a sign saying "60" that means that you probably won't need to stop but you're going to slow to a crawl. If everyone just did as it said things would probably improve massively.
- jwdunne 7y ago
  Those variable speed limit signs are meant to be enforced by average speed checks with cameras. I'm not sure what's going on with that, I know there are delays, but there's signage that says there are regular speed cameras. So if the cameras work, we'll have to do exactly what they say or get fined for speeding.
  - canofbars 7y ago
    I got hit by this a while ago. Was driving down an empty freeway at night and there must have been road works off the side of the road during the day but I didn't see it until the second sign but the speed camera was after the first sign and I got hit with an $800 fine :/
  - herghost 7y ago
    On the new 'Smart Motorways' there is built in enforcement via cameras. On those, the speed limit signs are actually speed limits, with the red ring around them. The ones I was referring to are advisory and look like this [0]. [0] https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/motorway-advisory-speed-limit-sign.jpg https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/motorway-advisory-spe...
- Ntrails 7y ago
  "40 - Queue ahead" by a junction about an hour after the traffic has cleared. A couple of weekends ago I drove past 3 lane closure warnings and low speed limit signs on a motorway with, you guessed it, no lanes closed. To some extent this is my confirmation bias, but certainly as often as not the signage is spurious and that's why people don't pay any attention to them. I suspect most people agree with the principal of the things, but every time they obey a sign whilst everyone else flies past, only to discover it was inaccurate it does affect the amount of credence future signs are given.
philjohn 7y ago
That's what the UK has done with their "Smart Motorways". It works surprisingly well, both through modulating the speed of traffic and by allowing the hard shoulder to be used at peak times.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
This solution doesn’t work if the number of vehicles has met the road’s carrying capacity. There is no avoiding traffic once the upper limit is reach, due to the differences in every vehicle’s acceleration/deceleration, as well has inclines and declines in the road. At a certain number of lanes and a certain speed, each vehicle needs a certain amount of space at a specific point in time to pass through a specific point on the road. Once this has been exceeded, the vehicles must start slowing down, and this will cause a ripple effect backwards until this congestion has cleared. We can try to smooth out this ripple, but if the congestion situation exists for long distances, all it will do is push back the ripple to the end of the congestion.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
"and because people don't adhere to the speed limit." If people can't follow the process maybe the process is wrong.
- throwawaymath 7y ago
  People can follow the process. Many people (most?) won't follow the process.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    <England> Clearly the solution is to add Orwellian levels of automated ticketing</England>
    - sdoering 7y ago
      Sarcasm or wishful thinking? Both are valid points one could argue for, depending on underlying values that are not necessarily rational.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    In the U.S., at least, it has been observed that roughly 10% of drivers adhere strictly to the limit. The rest drive the speed they find comfortable.
VectorLock 7y ago
The thing that makes me most excited about self-driving cars is what with a little bit of coordination these kind of smoothing techniques could be applied with even a modest percent of cars with the capability.
- daveheq 7y ago
  Sure, as long as the rushed buggy insecure software doesn't accelerate all the cars into the traffic jam.
cortesoft 7y ago
This only works if you are way under capacity on the road. Once there is enough traffic, no amount of tricks like this will fix the problem.
thescriptkiddie 7y ago
I have seen highway patrol officers doing what I assume is this in California. They turn on their lights and zigzag across all lanes, preventing anyone from passing them. Then they gradually slow down to a moderate speed, maintain that speed for a while, and at some point turn off their lights and drive off at high speed.
- csteubs 7y ago
  This is what's known as a "traffic break", and I see it on the 405 pretty frequently. Definitely threw me off the first time I encountered it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_break https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_break
- heyyyouu 7y ago
  I've only seen it done to stop traffic to pick up a hazard on the road. I'll have to pay more attention now and see if I can see them do it for moderating traffic flow.

ygra 7y ago

Mostly the latter, in my experience. Germany has dynamic signage on several highways, but if the sign says 80 (even with a secondary sign notifying of traffic jams), most people will still drive 160 if it doesn't look congested yet.

pandemic_region 7y ago
The ones still driving 160 are mostly foreign drivers in my experience. Most German drivers obey the speed limits. Note I'm not German but often drive through it.
- ygra 7y ago
  Admittedly, the 160 was exaggerated. But as a German who does obey the speed limit, my experience seems to be that most drivers don't.
  - choeger 7y ago
    Because you never notice all the other cars that do. They travel as fast as you, so their distance remains constant. You only notice cars going slower or faster than you.
- atoav 7y ago
  As somebody who was using the Autobahn quite a lot I’d say most people go between 120 and 160 when there is no speed limit. But it depend on the conditions
dx034 7y ago
From experience this is rare. 20kph above the limit is standard (and probably expected by the system setting speed limits), 80 over would cost your license for several months.
- ygra 7y ago
  Admittedly, 160 was exaggerated. But on stretches where there's no speed limit and you suddenly get this 80 km/h along with Stau signs, people tend to still drive 120 if there's no visible congestion. Since those dynamic limits are not really enforced (most speed cameras tend to be in places where there's a fixed limit at all times) there's rarely a downside to drivers. Same as with driving 80 in construction sites instead of the 60 that's signed.
  - cheschire 7y ago
    This is starting to change now that the polizei have started leaving mobile panzerblitzers in place for several days at a time. I've noticed in the last few months significantly more respect for changes in speed limits from the folks with local license plates.
matt4077 7y ago
That’s simply not true. Most people don’t even drive 160kph to begin with.
- Faaak 7y ago
  In some parts of the highway is very plausible. Even 200km/hour and more
  - matt4077 7y ago
    People seem to have some terrible difficulty of understanding the difference b/w “Most people don’t do <x>”, and “It’s theoretically possible to do <x>”.
    - lovemenot 7y ago
      People seem to have some terrible difficulty ... All / most / some people? Or just the person you responded to?
      - xiphias2 7y ago
        There are multiple reason why the way people communicate is important, one of which is the limited logical reasoning capability of most people. Just look at politics / marketing / dark patterns / mortgage contracts. I successfully changed my sister's mind from variable rate mortgage to fixed mortgage, as the language of the contract doesn't explicitly write how bad the worst case option can be 10 years from now for variable rate mortgage.
- Moru 7y ago
  That depends on what country you live in. Some areas in Germany, 200 km/h is no problem for hours straight.
  - matt4077 7y ago
    I live in Germany. And what you’re saying is (a) wrong, and (b) not even incompatible what I said.

mariefred 7y ago

Wow, works like magic ! Actually Swedish drivers are somewhat more obedient and indeed traffic problems are due to road hazards are on average less severe. For example when Swedes sees a lower speed sign or even just a warning before a road block they will slow and stay in one long lane, while in the mid eastern country I live in until recently everyone just speeds up trying to be first to pass the blocking. The results ? smoother flow and shorter queues, guess where ?

interfixus 7y ago
Swedish drivers are indeed obedient. Overly so, at times. I live in a heavily touristed part of Denmark - we get a lot of Swedish and German cars in the summerish half of the year. And I have long since learned to stay well clear of the Swedes whenever possible. They're too often going that extra bit too slow, adhering slightly too rigorously to every rule, not getting into the flow, too often being front Volvo going 70, the rest of us lined up behind, wanting to go home at 80 like the sign says.

jgtrosh 7y ago

In supercomputers, there are such mechanisms for reactive congestion management: messages are sent to emitters to temporarily reduce flow. It works at small network scale but doesn't scale up, because congestion can happen often and for short times, and the latency of reaction is similar to the latency of events means you are not reacting to congestion anymore, you're just reducing global bandwidth. To this day the best practical mitigation strategies are great deterministic load balancing, QoS through virtual channels and fine-tuned adaptive routing. The analogy with traffic doesn't really hold though, because we can theoretically propagate throttling instructions faster than the vehicles involved, and the problem lies more with getting instructions applied at all. Just thought giving some overview of a similar problem would give some food for thought.

FigmentEngine 7y ago
see also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpressure_routing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpressure_routing
takk309 7y ago
In a sense this sort of adaptive throttling does exist in traffic flow via ramp metering. Upstream sensors detect the traffic density and the signal at the ramp is adjusted to allow only enough traffic to bring the freeway up to capacity.

herghost 7y ago

This gives me a newfound respect for variable speed signs on UK motorways (NB. not the actual speed limit signs, the black signs with the white matrix of bulbs giving advisory speeds). To-date, if you see a sign saying "40", that basically means there's no traffic flow and you will have to come to a stop very shortly. If you see a sign saying "60" that means that you probably won't need to stop but you're going to slow to a crawl. If everyone just did as it said things would probably improve massively.

jwdunne 7y ago
Those variable speed limit signs are meant to be enforced by average speed checks with cameras. I'm not sure what's going on with that, I know there are delays, but there's signage that says there are regular speed cameras. So if the cameras work, we'll have to do exactly what they say or get fined for speeding.
- canofbars 7y ago
  I got hit by this a while ago. Was driving down an empty freeway at night and there must have been road works off the side of the road during the day but I didn't see it until the second sign but the speed camera was after the first sign and I got hit with an $800 fine :/
- herghost 7y ago
  On the new 'Smart Motorways' there is built in enforcement via cameras. On those, the speed limit signs are actually speed limits, with the red ring around them. The ones I was referring to are advisory and look like this [0]. [0] https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/motorway-advisory-speed-limit-sign.jpg https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/motorway-advisory-spe...
Ntrails 7y ago
"40 - Queue ahead" by a junction about an hour after the traffic has cleared. A couple of weekends ago I drove past 3 lane closure warnings and low speed limit signs on a motorway with, you guessed it, no lanes closed. To some extent this is my confirmation bias, but certainly as often as not the signage is spurious and that's why people don't pay any attention to them. I suspect most people agree with the principal of the things, but every time they obey a sign whilst everyone else flies past, only to discover it was inaccurate it does affect the amount of credence future signs are given.

philjohn 7y ago

That's what the UK has done with their "Smart Motorways". It works surprisingly well, both through modulating the speed of traffic and by allowing the hard shoulder to be used at peak times.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

This solution doesn’t work if the number of vehicles has met the road’s carrying capacity. There is no avoiding traffic once the upper limit is reach, due to the differences in every vehicle’s acceleration/deceleration, as well has inclines and declines in the road. At a certain number of lanes and a certain speed, each vehicle needs a certain amount of space at a specific point in time to pass through a specific point on the road. Once this has been exceeded, the vehicles must start slowing down, and this will cause a ripple effect backwards until this congestion has cleared. We can try to smooth out this ripple, but if the congestion situation exists for long distances, all it will do is push back the ripple to the end of the congestion.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

"and because people don't adhere to the speed limit." If people can't follow the process maybe the process is wrong.

throwawaymath 7y ago
People can follow the process. Many people (most?) won't follow the process.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  <England> Clearly the solution is to add Orwellian levels of automated ticketing</England>
  - sdoering 7y ago
    Sarcasm or wishful thinking? Both are valid points one could argue for, depending on underlying values that are not necessarily rational.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  In the U.S., at least, it has been observed that roughly 10% of drivers adhere strictly to the limit. The rest drive the speed they find comfortable.

VectorLock 7y ago

The thing that makes me most excited about self-driving cars is what with a little bit of coordination these kind of smoothing techniques could be applied with even a modest percent of cars with the capability.

daveheq 7y ago
Sure, as long as the rushed buggy insecure software doesn't accelerate all the cars into the traffic jam.

cortesoft 7y ago

This only works if you are way under capacity on the road. Once there is enough traffic, no amount of tricks like this will fix the problem.

thescriptkiddie 7y ago

I have seen highway patrol officers doing what I assume is this in California. They turn on their lights and zigzag across all lanes, preventing anyone from passing them. Then they gradually slow down to a moderate speed, maintain that speed for a while, and at some point turn off their lights and drive off at high speed.

csteubs 7y ago
This is what's known as a "traffic break", and I see it on the 405 pretty frequently. Definitely threw me off the first time I encountered it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_break https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_break
heyyyouu 7y ago
I've only seen it done to stop traffic to pick up a hazard on the road. I'll have to pay more attention now and see if I can see them do it for moderating traffic flow.