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> Under competition, acting like this is the best way to raise to the top Do you have evidence for that, or is it your guess? The study I am aware of on the s

> Under competition, acting like this is the best way to raise to the top Do you have evidence for that, or is it your guess? The study I am aware of on the subject concluded the best strategy in a competitive environment is to act fairly and assume fair play on everyone's behalf, but if someone crosses you, respond with all out force. I think it's called "Generous Tit-for-tat". I don't think "be shitty when you have something to gain" is recognized as a good strategy in Game Theory.

undreren 8y ago
Link to that study?
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  I think the first time I heard about it might have been on this Planet Money episode: https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=615621554 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... But I'm not really sure. This Google search links to a bunch of papers on the subject. It's a well explored area of research: https://www.google.com/search?q=repeated+prisoner%27s+dilemma+study+simulation+best+strategy https://www.google.com/search?q=repeated+prisoner%27s+dilemm...
michaelt 8y ago
If you want academic support for "if everyone else cheats and gets away with it, you'll have to cheat too" you might enjoy The Market for Lemons [1] This argues that, if 50% of used cars are good and worth $8000, and 50% are bad and worth $4000, and customers can't tell them apart on the lot, the buyers' expected value is $6000 so the sellers of good cars will make a loss and go out of business. That in turn will reduce the buyers' expected value to $4000. Obviously, that issue is specific to markets without seller reputations, reliable independent reviews, useful warranties, or effective consumer protection laws. Is Amazon Marketplace that way? You be the judge! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
DFHippie 8y ago
Generous Tit-for-Tat was the winning algorithm in a very particular scenario: repeated prisoner's dilemma. Each player knew the full history of its opponent's participation in the game and knew therefore that there would be consequences for its behavior in the current game. In this scenario your identity and reputation are perfectly known. This is a very different game.
- FakeComments 8y ago
  Do you actually need more than the previous round or two of actions to utilize the be-kind-until-crossed strategy? I’m not sure it requires perfect information, just accurate recent information.
  - philipov 8y ago
    For iterated prisoner's dilemma, you need the game to be infinitely long, meaning neither player knows when it will end. The moment either player realizes when the game is going to end, the game reverts to a regular prisoner's dilemma, and the first player to betray the other will win. The last round has no benefit for playing a Nice strategy, so you need to stab before the other player also realizes the game is going to end.
    - FakeComments 8y ago
      That doesn’t require infinite length, just indeterminate length and more than a single round (on average, or with certain rate). And I’m not sure that it doesn’t apply to the case where: A) You can’t determine when the game will end, and B) There’s very often several rounds. That seems to cover “society”, in a broad sense.
      - philipov 8y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm saying. Whether it applies to society or not depends on how often you have repeat interactions with the same person. For example, in a big city where you can expect to never run into someone again, I would expect people to favor Betray over Cooperate. Whereas, in a small village where you can't escape the people around you, I would expect people to favor Cooperate.
MadWombat 8y ago
> but if someone crosses you, respond with all out force How do you do that with Amazon? Stop buying from this one seller? Report them? But chances are you were not going to buy anything else from them anyway and I am not sure how much of a problem a report is. And you are not doing anything about the other bajillion bad sellers, so your next buying experience is like ly to turn out just the same.

undreren 8y ago

Link to that study?

erikpukinskis 8y ago
I think the first time I heard about it might have been on this Planet Money episode: https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=615621554 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... But I'm not really sure. This Google search links to a bunch of papers on the subject. It's a well explored area of research: https://www.google.com/search?q=repeated+prisoner%27s+dilemma+study+simulation+best+strategy https://www.google.com/search?q=repeated+prisoner%27s+dilemm...

michaelt 8y ago

If you want academic support for "if everyone else cheats and gets away with it, you'll have to cheat too" you might enjoy The Market for Lemons [1] This argues that, if 50% of used cars are good and worth $8000, and 50% are bad and worth $4000, and customers can't tell them apart on the lot, the buyers' expected value is $6000 so the sellers of good cars will make a loss and go out of business. That in turn will reduce the buyers' expected value to $4000. Obviously, that issue is specific to markets without seller reputations, reliable independent reviews, useful warranties, or effective consumer protection laws. Is Amazon Marketplace that way? You be the judge! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

DFHippie 8y ago

Generous Tit-for-Tat was the winning algorithm in a very particular scenario: repeated prisoner's dilemma. Each player knew the full history of its opponent's participation in the game and knew therefore that there would be consequences for its behavior in the current game. In this scenario your identity and reputation are perfectly known. This is a very different game.

FakeComments 8y ago
Do you actually need more than the previous round or two of actions to utilize the be-kind-until-crossed strategy? I’m not sure it requires perfect information, just accurate recent information.
- philipov 8y ago
  For iterated prisoner's dilemma, you need the game to be infinitely long, meaning neither player knows when it will end. The moment either player realizes when the game is going to end, the game reverts to a regular prisoner's dilemma, and the first player to betray the other will win. The last round has no benefit for playing a Nice strategy, so you need to stab before the other player also realizes the game is going to end.
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    That doesn’t require infinite length, just indeterminate length and more than a single round (on average, or with certain rate). And I’m not sure that it doesn’t apply to the case where: A) You can’t determine when the game will end, and B) There’s very often several rounds. That seems to cover “society”, in a broad sense.
    - philipov 8y ago
      Yes, that's what I'm saying. Whether it applies to society or not depends on how often you have repeat interactions with the same person. For example, in a big city where you can expect to never run into someone again, I would expect people to favor Betray over Cooperate. Whereas, in a small village where you can't escape the people around you, I would expect people to favor Cooperate.

MadWombat 8y ago

> but if someone crosses you, respond with all out force How do you do that with Amazon? Stop buying from this one seller? Report them? But chances are you were not going to buy anything else from them anyway and I am not sure how much of a problem a report is. And you are not doing anything about the other bajillion bad sellers, so your next buying experience is like ly to turn out just the same.