7 ms·

I think it's unfortunate from two perspectives: 1. I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. Exact

by cheez 8y ago

I think it's unfortunate from two perspectives: 1. I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. Exactly the contrary. So whenever I personally see these articles, I think it's a solution looking for a problem. For example, see this article: https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1095957/Google-news-gender-pay-gap-workers-men-woman https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1095957/Google-news-gen... 2. I'm not sure how much Katie likes to be reduced down to what is between her legs given the combined years of dedication it took to be able to achieve the results that the team achieved. In general, can we please applaud the people and not the identities? It's so sad to see this approach to celebrating achievements. I don't want my children to be labelled based on something they have no control over. A silver lining in this cloud is that "normies" don't really think this way, it's just the media.

arcticfox 8y ago
I loved the image of her, it's such an all-time classic, but I agree that her treatment was unfortunate. It seemed like a rush to narrative to me, which was totally unnecessary given how special the moment clearly was. To me, it kind of casts a pall over both such an amazing discovery and amazing moment of humanity. Remarkably I think today was the first time I recall seeing the name of even the director of the project (much less other teammates who may have had major roles) after having seen various posts about this over the past week.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  The Twitter/news world (it's amazing how closely they track each other) casts a pall over great achievements regularly. Remember the Hawaiian shirt guy? It's time to transced the reality TV stuff, amazing thing are happening.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  They did put in a lot of effort to prevent there being any ”the one person behind the picture” talk, from the grand gesture of having 4 simultaneous press conferences around the world, to small details like everyone starting the image reconstruction code at the same time on their laptops. If you go back I bet you will see other names in the texts you’ve read, but the collaboration itself didn’t try to sell anyone like the brains behind the picture, so there is not much to naturally focus on.
- belorn 8y ago
  Her name was on the front page of HN for almost the whole day under the story "Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image". 900 upvotes, 500 comments, posted 5 days ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19632086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19632086
- speedplane 8y ago
  > I agree that her treatment was unfortunate. It seemed like a rush to narrative to me, which was totally unnecessary given how special the moment clearly was. I don't see it that way. Combining societal elements to a scientific or engineering challenge is nothing new (e.g., Voyager's gold disc recording, Armstrong's one-small-step line, SpaceX launching a Tesla roadster). Similarly, imaging a black hole was an achievement of human society at large, and the fact that an achievement in one aspect of society (i.e., scientific knowledge) is linked to another (i.e., egalitarianism) makes the moment even more special. It makes the event feel like this isn't just a single narrow step in one direction, but movement forward of our entire civilization.
- cheez 8y ago
  Exactly. When I saw her, I saw the gleefulness that my children have when they achieve a goal. And to have their goal be pushed to the side because of their genitals seems completely unfair. Ironically, that's what the genital-police appear to be fighting against!
starpilot 8y ago
I have zero experience seeing black people being treated badly, or gay people, or children being abused... This type of anecdote carries no water and is an attempt to deny that people have different experiences based on their identities. It shouldn't matter in our world today, but it does.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  "Never seen it," holds more water than nothing, after all if it was common enough everyone would see it all the time. There's no doubt that it happens but you can't just assume from the outside that someone is secretly in a horrible situation just because they're of a certain race gender age etcetera. Hopefully we can get across to kids, don't avoid STEM out of fear, because there's definitely not a 100% chance that you will be signing yourself up for a lifelong struggle. One time someone told me that the worst part was how the other gender was extremely awkward around them in college. No, you are not going to have to storm the beaches of Normandy.
  - SiempreViernes 8y ago
    My friend was robbed, but I wasn’t there to see it. Still, I belive his testimony about it even though I’ve never actally witnessed a robbery in real life (as far as I’m aware). On the strength of this evidence I guess you agree that they can’t be that common, surely not as much as 70% of all property crimes?
    - belorn 8y ago
      The problem with generalization is how quickly it turn dark. Robberies... I know someone who was robbed by a immigrant, and I believe them. I also know that social economic factors play a huge role in crime, and that people who flee from war and immigrant to my country is on average on the lower scale on the social economic ladder. So what generalization should we apply here? Best practice is basically to do nothing and see to the individuals.
    - slavik81 8y ago
      > On the strength of this evidence I guess you agree that they can’t be that common, surely not as much as 70% of all property crimes? I couldn't believe this based on my personal experience (burglarized 3 times; robbed 0). Looking into it further, police statistics support my skepticism. In Canada, where my personal experience applies, robbery is considered a violent crime, not a property crime, but I suppose we can compare the rate regardless. In 2017, there were 62 reported robberies per 100,000 people. This is in comparison to 3,523 property crimes per 100,000 people. Thus, robberies would make up 2% of all property crimes. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2018001/article/54974-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2018001/article...
pm90 8y ago
> 1. I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. Exactly the contrary. So whenever I personally see these articles, I think it's a solution looking for a problem. I don't get this kind of reasoning at all. It really doesn't matter if you personally have not experienced such kind of behavior, only that we have reasonable evidence to believe it does. And as journalists have shown over the past couple of years, abuse of vulnerable women/minorities is a lot more widespread than what it was earlier believed to be.
- cheez 8y ago
  Mistreatment/abuse of women != women in STEM being treated badly. As React Conference-gate showed, people get offended at everything. That can't be the barometer.
  - pm90 8y ago
    > Mistreatment/abuse of women != women in STEM being treated badly. What? You realize all the recent guardrails that conferences have in place are there for a reason, right? They didn't materialize out of thin air. There have been many, many, many reports of various forms of sexual harassment and inappropriate conduct which necessitated their creation. I am not familiar with the conference you mention and can thus not comment on it.
    - cheez 8y ago
      Someone made a joke that documentation is like sex, bad documentation is better than none at all. Not sure if my memory is correct. Apparently this triggered some people and the guy had to go on an apology tour.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  Why would you believe journalists over STEM people about workplace conditions in STEM? Journalists will write whatever sells the most clicks. They're not some kind of scientists.
exelius 8y ago
> A silver lining in this cloud is that "normies" don't really think this way, it's just the media. I’ve come to believe that one of the core problems of journalism today is Twitter. It provides a false narrative as to what people care about in the world that lazy journalists just report on. At scale, it’s purely reactionary and partisan, so it’s easy to filter for the audience you want to target a message to. Incendiary Twitter bullshit gets way too much press as a result.
DanBC 8y ago
> I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. It's like you've never read any HN threads in your life.

by cheez 8y ago

arcticfox 8y ago

I loved the image of her, it's such an all-time classic, but I agree that her treatment was unfortunate. It seemed like a rush to narrative to me, which was totally unnecessary given how special the moment clearly was. To me, it kind of casts a pall over both such an amazing discovery and amazing moment of humanity. Remarkably I think today was the first time I recall seeing the name of even the director of the project (much less other teammates who may have had major roles) after having seen various posts about this over the past week.

whatshisface 8y ago
The Twitter/news world (it's amazing how closely they track each other) casts a pall over great achievements regularly. Remember the Hawaiian shirt guy? It's time to transced the reality TV stuff, amazing thing are happening.
SiempreViernes 8y ago
They did put in a lot of effort to prevent there being any ”the one person behind the picture” talk, from the grand gesture of having 4 simultaneous press conferences around the world, to small details like everyone starting the image reconstruction code at the same time on their laptops. If you go back I bet you will see other names in the texts you’ve read, but the collaboration itself didn’t try to sell anyone like the brains behind the picture, so there is not much to naturally focus on.
belorn 8y ago
Her name was on the front page of HN for almost the whole day under the story "Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image". 900 upvotes, 500 comments, posted 5 days ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19632086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19632086
speedplane 8y ago
> I agree that her treatment was unfortunate. It seemed like a rush to narrative to me, which was totally unnecessary given how special the moment clearly was. I don't see it that way. Combining societal elements to a scientific or engineering challenge is nothing new (e.g., Voyager's gold disc recording, Armstrong's one-small-step line, SpaceX launching a Tesla roadster). Similarly, imaging a black hole was an achievement of human society at large, and the fact that an achievement in one aspect of society (i.e., scientific knowledge) is linked to another (i.e., egalitarianism) makes the moment even more special. It makes the event feel like this isn't just a single narrow step in one direction, but movement forward of our entire civilization.
cheez 8y ago
Exactly. When I saw her, I saw the gleefulness that my children have when they achieve a goal. And to have their goal be pushed to the side because of their genitals seems completely unfair. Ironically, that's what the genital-police appear to be fighting against!

starpilot 8y ago

I have zero experience seeing black people being treated badly, or gay people, or children being abused... This type of anecdote carries no water and is an attempt to deny that people have different experiences based on their identities. It shouldn't matter in our world today, but it does.

whatshisface 8y ago
"Never seen it," holds more water than nothing, after all if it was common enough everyone would see it all the time. There's no doubt that it happens but you can't just assume from the outside that someone is secretly in a horrible situation just because they're of a certain race gender age etcetera. Hopefully we can get across to kids, don't avoid STEM out of fear, because there's definitely not a 100% chance that you will be signing yourself up for a lifelong struggle. One time someone told me that the worst part was how the other gender was extremely awkward around them in college. No, you are not going to have to storm the beaches of Normandy.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  My friend was robbed, but I wasn’t there to see it. Still, I belive his testimony about it even though I’ve never actally witnessed a robbery in real life (as far as I’m aware). On the strength of this evidence I guess you agree that they can’t be that common, surely not as much as 70% of all property crimes?
  - belorn 8y ago
    The problem with generalization is how quickly it turn dark. Robberies... I know someone who was robbed by a immigrant, and I believe them. I also know that social economic factors play a huge role in crime, and that people who flee from war and immigrant to my country is on average on the lower scale on the social economic ladder. So what generalization should we apply here? Best practice is basically to do nothing and see to the individuals.
  - slavik81 8y ago
    > On the strength of this evidence I guess you agree that they can’t be that common, surely not as much as 70% of all property crimes? I couldn't believe this based on my personal experience (burglarized 3 times; robbed 0). Looking into it further, police statistics support my skepticism. In Canada, where my personal experience applies, robbery is considered a violent crime, not a property crime, but I suppose we can compare the rate regardless. In 2017, there were 62 reported robberies per 100,000 people. This is in comparison to 3,523 property crimes per 100,000 people. Thus, robberies would make up 2% of all property crimes. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2018001/article/54974-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2018001/article...

pm90 8y ago

> 1. I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. Exactly the contrary. So whenever I personally see these articles, I think it's a solution looking for a problem. I don't get this kind of reasoning at all. It really doesn't matter if you personally have not experienced such kind of behavior, only that we have reasonable evidence to believe it does. And as journalists have shown over the past couple of years, abuse of vulnerable women/minorities is a lot more widespread than what it was earlier believed to be.

cheez 8y ago
Mistreatment/abuse of women != women in STEM being treated badly. As React Conference-gate showed, people get offended at everything. That can't be the barometer.
- pm90 8y ago
  > Mistreatment/abuse of women != women in STEM being treated badly. What? You realize all the recent guardrails that conferences have in place are there for a reason, right? They didn't materialize out of thin air. There have been many, many, many reports of various forms of sexual harassment and inappropriate conduct which necessitated their creation. I am not familiar with the conference you mention and can thus not comment on it.
  - cheez 8y ago
    Someone made a joke that documentation is like sex, bad documentation is better than none at all. Not sure if my memory is correct. Apparently this triggered some people and the guy had to go on an apology tour.
BurningFrog 8y ago
Why would you believe journalists over STEM people about workplace conditions in STEM? Journalists will write whatever sells the most clicks. They're not some kind of scientists.

exelius 8y ago

> A silver lining in this cloud is that "normies" don't really think this way, it's just the media. I’ve come to believe that one of the core problems of journalism today is Twitter. It provides a false narrative as to what people care about in the world that lazy journalists just report on. At scale, it’s purely reactionary and partisan, so it’s easy to filter for the audience you want to target a message to. Incendiary Twitter bullshit gets way too much press as a result.

DanBC 8y ago

> I have zero experience seeing women in STEM treated badly. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it. It's like you've never read any HN threads in your life.