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I doubt there was ever much debate that parents are the single most important factor for children. It’s just that, from a policy perspective, it is extremely h

I doubt there was ever much debate that parents are the single most important factor for children. It’s just that, from a policy perspective, it is extremely hard to actually have any impact on that behavior. It’s basically social work, a concept for which there is essentially no money at scale in the US.

ThomPete 8y ago
Money are not needed for parents to be engaged though.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  Parents who don't need to work two jobs to support their children are necessary though.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    Sure but that applies to any school and a lot more situations bo?
- p1necone 8y ago
  At an individual level, no. At an aggregate, long term, country wide level, yes. At least good governance and planning and money distribution, possibly not actually more money.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    That applies to a lot of things in life not just this so that feels like reaching imo. Sure parents need to be stable not the least financially but they need that to be good parents, good spouses, citizens etc.
    - ketzo 8y ago
      But I think the point is that it's really incredibly hard to do any of those things unless you have financial stability; at the very least, it's a hell of a lot easier when you do.
      - ThomPete 8y ago
        Life is hard. It's still a different discussion unless you don't think it applies to people who don't have any children.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
More wealth/economic security, safe environment, conscientious and attentive parents, good community of role models, peer kids with good parents as well = decent students. In other words - children are reared by their parents, as they always have (!) and their academic achievement is mostly a function of their upbringing. Sure, some kids hate school or are bad at at even with good parents. Some schools are better than others ... ... but if you have 'decent community, decent parents, decent regular public school' then 'the kids will be ok'. The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning. I just don't believe that the solution to education has much to do with 'teacher quality' or 'competitive teaching' or some kind of new-fangled special kind of education, or even exceptional schools. More controversially I would say that schools aren't even mostly about learning, other than some very basic mathematical, historical and geographic literacy, schools are mostly about socialization, language and communication. Effectively, kids learn how to communicate (in English, but it's more than just spoken written word), how to behave, 'how to learn something' i.e. not the knowledge, but the processing of learning/doing tasks, basic responsibilities and organization. The 'details' of most subjects are simply less important. Nobody cares if someone has memorized every state capital, but we do care that people are ready, engaged, can focus, communicate, accomplish things etc..
- luckydata 8y ago
  god, I totally agree, don't get me started on all that modern education bullcrap that people with no business being involved in teaching constantly peddle. The worst of them all in my opinion is Vinod Khosla, I rarely heard so much bad information coming out of a single man.
- jwagenet 8y ago
  > The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning. I think these issues are direct symptoms of poor education quality, which is itself a symptom of the issues you mention. It's a vicious cycle that perpetuates as the kids become adults and parents who create the negative environment and can't support their kids themselves. It's a long game, but investing in education is probably the "easy" place to start while kids are malleable. Adults are harder to reeducate; good luck flushing out the gangs, what are you going to do with those folks? Do as IPS and provide resources for parents to get training for things like GEDs so they can hopefully get better jobs. Provide after school programs and a safe sub community. It'll take time, but the new generation can hopefully grow up in a better place.
mjevans 8y ago
It's interesting, because if we were actually battling a War on Poverty, we wouldn't need to have a war on drugs, or any other kind of crime.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  There is always a tendency to make wars against the wrong people like the war on drugs going against drug users or the war on poverty going against poor people.

ThomPete 8y ago

Money are not needed for parents to be engaged though.

InitialLastName 8y ago
Parents who don't need to work two jobs to support their children are necessary though.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  Sure but that applies to any school and a lot more situations bo?
p1necone 8y ago
At an individual level, no. At an aggregate, long term, country wide level, yes. At least good governance and planning and money distribution, possibly not actually more money.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  That applies to a lot of things in life not just this so that feels like reaching imo. Sure parents need to be stable not the least financially but they need that to be good parents, good spouses, citizens etc.
  - ketzo 8y ago
    But I think the point is that it's really incredibly hard to do any of those things unless you have financial stability; at the very least, it's a hell of a lot easier when you do.
    - ThomPete 8y ago
      Life is hard. It's still a different discussion unless you don't think it applies to people who don't have any children.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

More wealth/economic security, safe environment, conscientious and attentive parents, good community of role models, peer kids with good parents as well = decent students. In other words - children are reared by their parents, as they always have (!) and their academic achievement is mostly a function of their upbringing. Sure, some kids hate school or are bad at at even with good parents. Some schools are better than others ... ... but if you have 'decent community, decent parents, decent regular public school' then 'the kids will be ok'. The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning. I just don't believe that the solution to education has much to do with 'teacher quality' or 'competitive teaching' or some kind of new-fangled special kind of education, or even exceptional schools. More controversially I would say that schools aren't even mostly about learning, other than some very basic mathematical, historical and geographic literacy, schools are mostly about socialization, language and communication. Effectively, kids learn how to communicate (in English, but it's more than just spoken written word), how to behave, 'how to learn something' i.e. not the knowledge, but the processing of learning/doing tasks, basic responsibilities and organization. The 'details' of most subjects are simply less important. Nobody cares if someone has memorized every state capital, but we do care that people are ready, engaged, can focus, communicate, accomplish things etc..

luckydata 8y ago
god, I totally agree, don't get me started on all that modern education bullcrap that people with no business being involved in teaching constantly peddle. The worst of them all in my opinion is Vinod Khosla, I rarely heard so much bad information coming out of a single man.
jwagenet 8y ago
> The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning. I think these issues are direct symptoms of poor education quality, which is itself a symptom of the issues you mention. It's a vicious cycle that perpetuates as the kids become adults and parents who create the negative environment and can't support their kids themselves. It's a long game, but investing in education is probably the "easy" place to start while kids are malleable. Adults are harder to reeducate; good luck flushing out the gangs, what are you going to do with those folks? Do as IPS and provide resources for parents to get training for things like GEDs so they can hopefully get better jobs. Provide after school programs and a safe sub community. It'll take time, but the new generation can hopefully grow up in a better place.

mjevans 8y ago

It's interesting, because if we were actually battling a War on Poverty, we wouldn't need to have a war on drugs, or any other kind of crime.

maxxxxx 8y ago
There is always a tendency to make wars against the wrong people like the war on drugs going against drug users or the war on poverty going against poor people.