6 ms·

Maybe California could donate some fire-resistant redwood for the rebuilding?

tathougies 8y ago
No thanks. If we have any redwood left to be used for building, I'd rather have them go to the better attended local cathedrals, than a cathedral that is really no longer used.
- ddalex 8y ago
  What do you mean, not used? Mass was celebrated daily, and it's in active use as a place of worship.... or was, sadly
  - tathougies 8y ago
    I mean that Notre Dame, while certainly still a cathedral, is not very active. I've been to daily Mass in Notre Dame, and it was completely underpopulated, when compared to other, poorer cathedrals I've been to, including in my own state. I've been to many Catholic locales, and there are many poor Catholic artisans who would be willing to create beautiful Catholic art if they had resources. I'd rather they get the resources, than some secular artisan simply trying to copy Catholic art. I would rather see resources go to actual Catholics to be used in an actual Catholic place of worship that is frequented and populated than to non-Catholic artisans attempting to mimick Catholic beauty to restore a building that is not actually used. The fact is that the well-loved parish stands a chance of becoming a Notre Dame of the future, whereas, Notre Dame itself is likely to fade away and become a museum, unless the people of France actually decide to become Catholic again. The truth is that, it was the underlying belief in the Catholic world view that made Notre Dame the legend it is today (the constant creation of beauty, the grandeur, the preservation through the ages). No amount of money to secular authorities can possibly recreate that exact mythos, whereas it could if sent to another diocese that still practiced. EDIT: perhaps I'm wrong and Notre dame is more active than I thought and I just visited at a bad time, but from what I've read, there's not many actual Catholics in France, at least when compared to California.
    - dbasedweeb 8y ago
      Please just stop. Even your attempt at mitigation through edit is wrong, and it would have been trivial for you to correct your misapprehension. There are an estimated 10 million Catholics in California compared to between 27-58 million in France. Besides, the value of the place as a cultural institution visited by 13m+ a year just to see it isn’t something you should dismiss along with its centuries of cultural significance just because it offends your religious sensibilities. It’s also a miserable stance to take while the place is still literally on fire.
      - tathougies 8y ago
        The catholics in france are not active. This is a documented fact. Mass attendance (and thus parish involvement) is notably low. Only 5 percent attend mass and are active, putting the truly devout at between 2 and 4 million. On the other hand 40 percent of californoas catholics attend mass, making that 4 million active catholics (and growing). Thus the most conservative estimates in California put it on par with the most liberal of france which is ... shocking. The value to the 13 million tourists simply cannot compare to the value of a church to the Church. It is cultural appropriation to pretend that the church is worth more to non catholics than to actual Catholics. Thats like pretending Mecca means more to all of humanity than to Muslims. Thats just... Wrong Its not a miserable stance to take... The resources of faithful catholics are better spent elsewhere. If humanists want to rebuild notre dame into a cathedral to the human spirit... Fine, but it would lose all meaning it once had and thus the value it currently holds. I would love to see a resurgence of french Catholicism but it seems like the boat has sailed. Sources: https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.ibtimes.com/church-decline-frances-vanishing-catholics-1125241 https://www.ibtimes.com/church-decline-frances-vanishing-cat...
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- lambdasquirrel 8y ago
  The state government set up Jackson Demonstration Forest specifically to show people how to sustainably harvest from a redwood grove. Notre Dame is a cultural icon, I'm sure the French would appreciate the gesture.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    But northern California has its own share of historic churches that could use the timber

No thanks. If we have any redwood left to be used for building, I'd rather have them go to the better attended local cathedrals, than a cathedral that is really no longer used.

ddalex 8y ago
What do you mean, not used? Mass was celebrated daily, and it's in active use as a place of worship.... or was, sadly
- tathougies 8y ago
  I mean that Notre Dame, while certainly still a cathedral, is not very active. I've been to daily Mass in Notre Dame, and it was completely underpopulated, when compared to other, poorer cathedrals I've been to, including in my own state. I've been to many Catholic locales, and there are many poor Catholic artisans who would be willing to create beautiful Catholic art if they had resources. I'd rather they get the resources, than some secular artisan simply trying to copy Catholic art. I would rather see resources go to actual Catholics to be used in an actual Catholic place of worship that is frequented and populated than to non-Catholic artisans attempting to mimick Catholic beauty to restore a building that is not actually used. The fact is that the well-loved parish stands a chance of becoming a Notre Dame of the future, whereas, Notre Dame itself is likely to fade away and become a museum, unless the people of France actually decide to become Catholic again. The truth is that, it was the underlying belief in the Catholic world view that made Notre Dame the legend it is today (the constant creation of beauty, the grandeur, the preservation through the ages). No amount of money to secular authorities can possibly recreate that exact mythos, whereas it could if sent to another diocese that still practiced. EDIT: perhaps I'm wrong and Notre dame is more active than I thought and I just visited at a bad time, but from what I've read, there's not many actual Catholics in France, at least when compared to California.
  - dbasedweeb 8y ago
    Please just stop. Even your attempt at mitigation through edit is wrong, and it would have been trivial for you to correct your misapprehension. There are an estimated 10 million Catholics in California compared to between 27-58 million in France. Besides, the value of the place as a cultural institution visited by 13m+ a year just to see it isn’t something you should dismiss along with its centuries of cultural significance just because it offends your religious sensibilities. It’s also a miserable stance to take while the place is still literally on fire.
    - tathougies 8y ago
      The catholics in france are not active. This is a documented fact. Mass attendance (and thus parish involvement) is notably low. Only 5 percent attend mass and are active, putting the truly devout at between 2 and 4 million. On the other hand 40 percent of californoas catholics attend mass, making that 4 million active catholics (and growing). Thus the most conservative estimates in California put it on par with the most liberal of france which is ... shocking. The value to the 13 million tourists simply cannot compare to the value of a church to the Church. It is cultural appropriation to pretend that the church is worth more to non catholics than to actual Catholics. Thats like pretending Mecca means more to all of humanity than to Muslims. Thats just... Wrong Its not a miserable stance to take... The resources of faithful catholics are better spent elsewhere. If humanists want to rebuild notre dame into a cathedral to the human spirit... Fine, but it would lose all meaning it once had and thus the value it currently holds. I would love to see a resurgence of french Catholicism but it seems like the boat has sailed. Sources: https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.ibtimes.com/church-decline-frances-vanishing-catholics-1125241 https://www.ibtimes.com/church-decline-frances-vanishing-cat...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
lambdasquirrel 8y ago
The state government set up Jackson Demonstration Forest specifically to show people how to sustainably harvest from a redwood grove. Notre Dame is a cultural icon, I'm sure the French would appreciate the gesture.
- tathougies 8y ago
  But northern California has its own share of historic churches that could use the timber