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So it wasn't the rogue engineers after all? Colour me surprised! (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-a-few-rogue-eng

So it wasn't the rogue engineers after all? Colour me surprised! (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-a-few-rogue-engineers-are-to-blame-says-vw-chief-executive-a6687201.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-...)

jacobush 8y ago
Maybe a little bit of that too.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
devy 8y ago
German regulators are ALL IN on cracking down diesel gate once for all. It hurts the German auto manufacturing reputation big time. And we now know it's probably an industry wide practice extends beyond VW[1]. [1]: https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-emissions-cheating-expands/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-emission...
- r00fus 8y ago
  I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company. Are the other car manufacturers going to be held to account as well?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    I have a hard time having faith in any auto manufacturer whose EV initiatives are compelled by regulatory interests. Tesla is the only automaker whose dabbling in EVs isn't for the most part motivated by meeting regulatory compliance.
    - pyrale 8y ago
      Don't Tesla sell co2 emission credits to other companies ? I would be surprised if the company doesn't owe its continued existence to these credits.
      - cptskippy 7y ago
        Here's the breakdown: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243459-evolution-teslas-regulatory-credit-revenue https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243459-evolution-teslas-re... It's only a small portion of their revenue overall and they operate on razor thin margins so it just might be keeping them afloat.
  - stiGGG 8y ago
    >I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company. As someone who already owned a couple cars out of the Volkswagen brands, currently is seeing them still very critical but following their news closely I am sure they will do. The first ID model will maybe delayed, maybe not better than a Tesla in many points, but I see VW is going full in to EVs and this is something that would never happened so fast if there wasn’t this Dieselgate story. The other german car manufactors are way more conservative with their transition and VW will push a So this is maybe the happy end of all this.
    - Haga 7y ago
      No they will not. You can't imagine the sunken cost fallacy around the diesel. Careers, factory and towns where build around this. They can not grow internak competition against it without sabotage from those who built this.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      The "requirement" for a fleet average of 95g of CO2/km in the EU is inevitably pushing many manufacturers to double-down on full EVs, as provided you can sell enough they can have a dramatic effect on the fleet average. (It's a requirement insofar as there are fines for being over, but there's no other consequences in the short-term.)
- mpweiher 8y ago
  And of course not just German industry: “ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat.“ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
- walrus01 8y ago
  The engine control systems were from Bosch, also german, so other car manufacturers that also used Bosch for the engine/fuel injection/emissions control subsystem may have also made use of the "test conditions" bypass.
- yungchin 8y ago
  Not sure if this other scandal has a name yet, but it's basically a combined diesel+petrolgate, and certainly involves more than just VW: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/05/bmw-daimler-and-vw-charged-collusion-clean-emissions-tech https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/05/bmw-daimler... "Between 2006 and 2014, the commission suspects that the “circle of five” carmakers ... colluded to limit, delay or avoid the introduction of selective catalytic reduction systems (SCRs) and “Otto” particle filters."
- d1zzy 8y ago
  The best thing about this scandal is that (at least for now) all new VW cars have 6 years of warranty/72k miles. Such a great deal, couldn't say no to that.
  - Smoosh 8y ago
    Here in Australia they have 5 year unlimited km warranty.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  So of all of the modern generation of passenger car diesels we're there any that achieved what they were supposed to? If Mercedes and VW were both cheating, who else made that type of diesel? BMW? The US never seemed to see many passenger vehicles of that type.
- InclinedPlane 8y ago
  Not only that, it caused people to die. Diesel emissions are one of the most dangerous kinds of emissions from a public health perspective, especially in populated areas. Because of this emissions testing fraud diesel emissions pollution was worse in many major cities than it would have otherwise been, and the result has been unquestionably a vast loss of life (DALYs, if you prefer), no different than if someone had poisoned a water supply or sold tainted food. But because it has been so diffuse that aspect hasn't gotten quite the attention it deserves.
- topspin 8y ago
  > It hurts the German auto manufacturing reputation big time. Does it? US sales figures don't reflect that claim. They'll be back to their 400,000+/y US sales rate in the next year or two. The hit after 2015 was modest, never going below 300,000.
- mikorym 8y ago
  I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Southern Africa, VW's service is absolutely terrible. The cars themselves are not bad, but the service centres are downright dishonest and very unhelpful. So, for me at least, the real reputation problem is their attitude towards the customer.
kuschku 8y ago
The "rogue engineer" they presented wasn't just an engineer, but the head of the entire division at VW. The entire "rogue engineer" meme is ridiculous, and this person is absolutely not innocent.
- Haga 8y ago
  I know the sort of instructions you get to become a rogue engineer. I want x achieved by date y. I do not care how you do it, I don't even want to know that. But unless you manage that let nobody come back alive.
javagram 8y ago
According to the article > While the actions of some of the men dates to 2006, Winterkorn was informed about the scam in May 2014, according to prosecutors. Six months later, he condoned a “useless” update of the vehicles’ computer software to help further veil the scam. So, from 2006-2014 it was rogue engineers and then the CEO took actions to cover it up? Seems similar to many scandals throughout history, like Watergate where Nixon didn’t direct the burglary but did direct actions to cover it up.
dv_dt 8y ago
The "rogue engineer" excuse was always empty. If a rogue engineer put the cheat into the design and it made it thru production, what it strongly implies is your design verification process is broken.
philpem 8y ago
What stunned me was that the German legal system is going after the managers who made the decisions, not the engineers who implemented them (undoubtedly under duress). In any other country -- and especially UK/USA -- I'd expect to have seen a bunch of engineers forced into plea-bargain deals an a bunch of managers "retiring" to Monaco.

jacobush 8y ago

Maybe a little bit of that too.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

devy 8y ago

German regulators are ALL IN on cracking down diesel gate once for all. It hurts the German auto manufacturing reputation big time. And we now know it's probably an industry wide practice extends beyond VW[1]. [1]: https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-emissions-cheating-expands/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-emission...

r00fus 8y ago
I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company. Are the other car manufacturers going to be held to account as well?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  I have a hard time having faith in any auto manufacturer whose EV initiatives are compelled by regulatory interests. Tesla is the only automaker whose dabbling in EVs isn't for the most part motivated by meeting regulatory compliance.
  - pyrale 8y ago
    Don't Tesla sell co2 emission credits to other companies ? I would be surprised if the company doesn't owe its continued existence to these credits.
    - cptskippy 7y ago
      Here's the breakdown: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243459-evolution-teslas-regulatory-credit-revenue https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243459-evolution-teslas-re... It's only a small portion of their revenue overall and they operate on razor thin margins so it just might be keeping them afloat.
- stiGGG 8y ago
  >I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company. As someone who already owned a couple cars out of the Volkswagen brands, currently is seeing them still very critical but following their news closely I am sure they will do. The first ID model will maybe delayed, maybe not better than a Tesla in many points, but I see VW is going full in to EVs and this is something that would never happened so fast if there wasn’t this Dieselgate story. The other german car manufactors are way more conservative with their transition and VW will push a So this is maybe the happy end of all this.
  - Haga 7y ago
    No they will not. You can't imagine the sunken cost fallacy around the diesel. Careers, factory and towns where build around this. They can not grow internak competition against it without sabotage from those who built this.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    The "requirement" for a fleet average of 95g of CO2/km in the EU is inevitably pushing many manufacturers to double-down on full EVs, as provided you can sell enough they can have a dramatic effect on the fleet average. (It's a requirement insofar as there are fines for being over, but there's no other consequences in the short-term.)
mpweiher 8y ago
And of course not just German industry: “ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat.“ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
walrus01 8y ago
The engine control systems were from Bosch, also german, so other car manufacturers that also used Bosch for the engine/fuel injection/emissions control subsystem may have also made use of the "test conditions" bypass.
yungchin 8y ago
Not sure if this other scandal has a name yet, but it's basically a combined diesel+petrolgate, and certainly involves more than just VW: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/05/bmw-daimler-and-vw-charged-collusion-clean-emissions-tech https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/05/bmw-daimler... "Between 2006 and 2014, the commission suspects that the “circle of five” carmakers ... colluded to limit, delay or avoid the introduction of selective catalytic reduction systems (SCRs) and “Otto” particle filters."
d1zzy 8y ago
The best thing about this scandal is that (at least for now) all new VW cars have 6 years of warranty/72k miles. Such a great deal, couldn't say no to that.
- Smoosh 8y ago
  Here in Australia they have 5 year unlimited km warranty.
dv_dt 8y ago
So of all of the modern generation of passenger car diesels we're there any that achieved what they were supposed to? If Mercedes and VW were both cheating, who else made that type of diesel? BMW? The US never seemed to see many passenger vehicles of that type.
InclinedPlane 8y ago
Not only that, it caused people to die. Diesel emissions are one of the most dangerous kinds of emissions from a public health perspective, especially in populated areas. Because of this emissions testing fraud diesel emissions pollution was worse in many major cities than it would have otherwise been, and the result has been unquestionably a vast loss of life (DALYs, if you prefer), no different than if someone had poisoned a water supply or sold tainted food. But because it has been so diffuse that aspect hasn't gotten quite the attention it deserves.
topspin 8y ago
> It hurts the German auto manufacturing reputation big time. Does it? US sales figures don't reflect that claim. They'll be back to their 400,000+/y US sales rate in the next year or two. The hit after 2015 was modest, never going below 300,000.
mikorym 8y ago
I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Southern Africa, VW's service is absolutely terrible. The cars themselves are not bad, but the service centres are downright dishonest and very unhelpful. So, for me at least, the real reputation problem is their attitude towards the customer.

kuschku 8y ago

The "rogue engineer" they presented wasn't just an engineer, but the head of the entire division at VW. The entire "rogue engineer" meme is ridiculous, and this person is absolutely not innocent.

Haga 8y ago
I know the sort of instructions you get to become a rogue engineer. I want x achieved by date y. I do not care how you do it, I don't even want to know that. But unless you manage that let nobody come back alive.

javagram 8y ago

According to the article > While the actions of some of the men dates to 2006, Winterkorn was informed about the scam in May 2014, according to prosecutors. Six months later, he condoned a “useless” update of the vehicles’ computer software to help further veil the scam. So, from 2006-2014 it was rogue engineers and then the CEO took actions to cover it up? Seems similar to many scandals throughout history, like Watergate where Nixon didn’t direct the burglary but did direct actions to cover it up.

dv_dt 8y ago

The "rogue engineer" excuse was always empty. If a rogue engineer put the cheat into the design and it made it thru production, what it strongly implies is your design verification process is broken.

philpem 8y ago

What stunned me was that the German legal system is going after the managers who made the decisions, not the engineers who implemented them (undoubtedly under duress). In any other country -- and especially UK/USA -- I'd expect to have seen a bunch of engineers forced into plea-bargain deals an a bunch of managers "retiring" to Monaco.