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I'm surprised that managers are actually being held to account in Germany now. There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so; the government seemed

I'm surprised that managers are actually being held to account in Germany now. There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so; the government seemed eager to believe the obviously bogus claim that it was just a few rogue engineers perpetrating this crime. This cheating literally cost thousands of lives, so I'd say some time in prison is perfectly fair. Fines are useless because it is not the executives who pay.

zarkov99 7y ago
How did it cost thousands of lives?
- jacobush 7y ago
  Excess diesel exhaust particles, multiplied by liters of fuel flowing through the cars over the years. (Edit:) The cars were allowed to emit a certain amount of dangerous substances, causing X amounts of deaths per year. Instead they in reality emitted a larger amount, and caused X + Y deaths per year. So VW traded Y number of deaths for extra marketshare and profit.
  - jngreenlee 7y ago
    Non-scientific alarmism belongs on Reddit. Or bring a study/some math.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      Now I'm really curious what is unscientific about my little explanation?
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  It's extrapolation based on the effects of that type of pollution and the amount of pollution. It's not wrong but it's not telling the whole truth either. More rigorous metrics like YPLL would be better. A 20yo that drops dead is different from an elderly person that dies of lung issues a few years before cancer would have got them and more meaningful metrics attempt to capture this. "Deaths" is just a number and it doesn't tell you much. Age adjusted metrics don't make for bolt headlines or effective emotional appeals so it's understandable why nobody uses them.
  - tomatotomato37 7y ago
    Yeah, that's what really irks me about people making direct death comparisons over air pollution, especially when the QoL factor is excuse enough. Calculating the decrease in life expectancy of at-risk patients and then somehow suming them up is much more honest than implying the death of an elderly lung cancer patient a month early is a life destroyed by pollution.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      This conversation is a lot less abstract if you know someone with COPD or severe asthma. The condition kills them but the pollution pulls the trigger.
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      We probably should have all the major execs sitting on death row for the deaths "caused" by leaded fuel belching out of cars with no emissions controls at all. In places where diesel isn't placed on a pedestal to suppress gasoline usage, air quality is far better than it was 40 years ago.
  - jononor 7y ago
    For those that did not know, YPLL=Years of Potential Life Lost. Commonly used when estimating pollution impacts.
- jhayward 7y ago
  The NY Times published an article[1] in 2015 that asked a few public health experts to estimate the loss of life in the US due to the fraud. An MIT study claims over 1,200 premature deaths in Europe due to the fraud. [2][3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/upshot/how-many-deaths-did-volkswagens-deception-cause-in-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/upshot/how-many-deaths-di... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/science/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-air-pollution-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/science/volkswagen-emissi... [3] https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-dea...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Tomte 7y ago
> There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so I don't know why this impression is so widespread. The prosecutor's office started investigations immediately, there have been quite a few raids in offices and private homes over all this time, yet, online commenters always claim that Germany wouldn't prosecute (or would not prosecute managers).
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  When people are Outraged(TM) and they want someone's (metaphorical) head on a platter Now(TM), not after going through all those boring technicalities that come with the outdated concept known as due process. (in case it's not, the /s should be obvious)
- __jal 7y ago
  Heard someone saying "What took so long?" in my office. I pointed out that the Enron scandal events started in the 90s, started making news in 2001, and Skilling was sentenced in 2006. The wheels of justice grind slowly.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    There's a difference though - in the US those wheels never really grind, so, I was assuming nothing would ever come from this... Apparently Germany actually likes justice and laws though?
    - Thrymr 7y ago
      Jeffrey Skilling in fact served 12 years in federal prison. The wheels did grind eventually.
      - ionised 7y ago
        And how many people who have done worse have received similar punishments since?
    - jupp0r 7y ago
chmod775 7y ago
> the government seemed eager to believe the obviously bogus claim that it was just a few rogue engineers perpetrating this crime. The legislative is not the executive is not the judicial. Don't throw the whole government into one basket. Don't even throw the whole of a single branch of government into one basket. There's a lot of independent actors and parties involved.
jplayer01 7y ago
Not sure what made anybody think otherwise. There are strict laws such that any owners or upper management (CEO) if responsible for criminal offenses will be privately fined. That means their own fortunes are at risk here. This isn't the US. VW was already fined. They're done. Now Winterkorn and the others are being charged and any fines demanded by the court will be paid from their private fortunes. Also, there will be jail time and fines involved if they're found guilty.
- itslennysfault 7y ago
  > Not sure what made anybody think otherwise Maybe a lifetime of seeing governments fail to enforce laws against the rich?
- Drunk_Engineer 7y ago
  The US is not done with VW. The SEC has just filed a lawsuit against VW for lying to investors.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Which is funny because I don't see the SEC holding any American company or executive accountable for all the shit that they pull. Anyway, I was talking about Germany.
skummetmaelk 7y ago
Manager: "Do this on time and under budget or you're fired" Engineer: "The only way to do that is to..." Manager interrupts: "I don't care about the details. You said it could be done" Engineer (silently): "Ok well I guess I'll go to jail or see my family fall on hard times"
- tracker1 7y ago
  In this case Engineer is played by the head of the division for VW.
olivermarks 7y ago
'literally cost thousands of lives' < How so?

zarkov99 7y ago

How did it cost thousands of lives?

jacobush 7y ago
Excess diesel exhaust particles, multiplied by liters of fuel flowing through the cars over the years. (Edit:) The cars were allowed to emit a certain amount of dangerous substances, causing X amounts of deaths per year. Instead they in reality emitted a larger amount, and caused X + Y deaths per year. So VW traded Y number of deaths for extra marketshare and profit.
- jngreenlee 7y ago
  Non-scientific alarmism belongs on Reddit. Or bring a study/some math.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Now I'm really curious what is unscientific about my little explanation?
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
It's extrapolation based on the effects of that type of pollution and the amount of pollution. It's not wrong but it's not telling the whole truth either. More rigorous metrics like YPLL would be better. A 20yo that drops dead is different from an elderly person that dies of lung issues a few years before cancer would have got them and more meaningful metrics attempt to capture this. "Deaths" is just a number and it doesn't tell you much. Age adjusted metrics don't make for bolt headlines or effective emotional appeals so it's understandable why nobody uses them.
- tomatotomato37 7y ago
  Yeah, that's what really irks me about people making direct death comparisons over air pollution, especially when the QoL factor is excuse enough. Calculating the decrease in life expectancy of at-risk patients and then somehow suming them up is much more honest than implying the death of an elderly lung cancer patient a month early is a life destroyed by pollution.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    This conversation is a lot less abstract if you know someone with COPD or severe asthma. The condition kills them but the pollution pulls the trigger.
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    We probably should have all the major execs sitting on death row for the deaths "caused" by leaded fuel belching out of cars with no emissions controls at all. In places where diesel isn't placed on a pedestal to suppress gasoline usage, air quality is far better than it was 40 years ago.
- jononor 7y ago
  For those that did not know, YPLL=Years of Potential Life Lost. Commonly used when estimating pollution impacts.
jhayward 7y ago
The NY Times published an article[1] in 2015 that asked a few public health experts to estimate the loss of life in the US due to the fraud. An MIT study claims over 1,200 premature deaths in Europe due to the fraud. [2][3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/upshot/how-many-deaths-did-volkswagens-deception-cause-in-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/upshot/how-many-deaths-di... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/science/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-air-pollution-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/science/volkswagen-emissi... [3] https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-dea...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Tomte 7y ago

> There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so I don't know why this impression is so widespread. The prosecutor's office started investigations immediately, there have been quite a few raids in offices and private homes over all this time, yet, online commenters always claim that Germany wouldn't prosecute (or would not prosecute managers).

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
When people are Outraged(TM) and they want someone's (metaphorical) head on a platter Now(TM), not after going through all those boring technicalities that come with the outdated concept known as due process. (in case it's not, the /s should be obvious)
__jal 7y ago
Heard someone saying "What took so long?" in my office. I pointed out that the Enron scandal events started in the 90s, started making news in 2001, and Skilling was sentenced in 2006. The wheels of justice grind slowly.
- munk-a 7y ago
  There's a difference though - in the US those wheels never really grind, so, I was assuming nothing would ever come from this... Apparently Germany actually likes justice and laws though?
  - Thrymr 7y ago
    Jeffrey Skilling in fact served 12 years in federal prison. The wheels did grind eventually.
    - ionised 7y ago
      And how many people who have done worse have received similar punishments since?
  - jupp0r 7y ago

chmod775 7y ago

> the government seemed eager to believe the obviously bogus claim that it was just a few rogue engineers perpetrating this crime. The legislative is not the executive is not the judicial. Don't throw the whole government into one basket. Don't even throw the whole of a single branch of government into one basket. There's a lot of independent actors and parties involved.

jplayer01 7y ago

Not sure what made anybody think otherwise. There are strict laws such that any owners or upper management (CEO) if responsible for criminal offenses will be privately fined. That means their own fortunes are at risk here. This isn't the US. VW was already fined. They're done. Now Winterkorn and the others are being charged and any fines demanded by the court will be paid from their private fortunes. Also, there will be jail time and fines involved if they're found guilty.

itslennysfault 7y ago
> Not sure what made anybody think otherwise Maybe a lifetime of seeing governments fail to enforce laws against the rich?
Drunk_Engineer 7y ago
The US is not done with VW. The SEC has just filed a lawsuit against VW for lying to investors.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Which is funny because I don't see the SEC holding any American company or executive accountable for all the shit that they pull. Anyway, I was talking about Germany.

skummetmaelk 7y ago

Manager: "Do this on time and under budget or you're fired" Engineer: "The only way to do that is to..." Manager interrupts: "I don't care about the details. You said it could be done" Engineer (silently): "Ok well I guess I'll go to jail or see my family fall on hard times"

tracker1 7y ago
In this case Engineer is played by the head of the division for VW.

olivermarks 7y ago

'literally cost thousands of lives' < How so?