7 ms·

I had the privilege of undertaking the first (and now the last..) study on the spire of Notre Dame since 1933. The restoration works that were under place are

by kweks 8y ago

I had the privilege of undertaking the first (and now the last..) study on the spire of Notre Dame since 1933. The restoration works that were under place are a result in part of our recommended actions. The spire was incredible. It was one oak trunk, connected with a "Scarf Joint", or "Jupitre" in French (Bolt-of-lightning joint) There were the names of the last guys to inspect it in the 1930s, engraved at the top. There was a french ww2 bullet embedded in the spire, presumably shot at a germany sniper who was in the spire... Everything in the roof was antique wood. Anyone that went into the roof was paranoid of fire. It's a very, very sad day. As a celebration, I'm throwing up some photos that we'd never published from our study. https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0 https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0

Balgair 8y ago
The Bells of Notre Dame: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzDXgxaq94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzDXgxaq94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5wDX-pZLOs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5wDX-pZLOs It'll be decades, but if I'm very lucky enough to live very long, I may hear those peals myself.
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  The bells really are something when hearing in person. What a loss.
lambdasquirrel 8y ago
Maybe California could donate some fire-resistant redwood for the rebuilding?
- tathougies 8y ago
  No thanks. If we have any redwood left to be used for building, I'd rather have them go to the better attended local cathedrals, than a cathedral that is really no longer used.
  - ddalex 8y ago
    What do you mean, not used? Mass was celebrated daily, and it's in active use as a place of worship.... or was, sadly
    - tathougies 8y ago
      I mean that Notre Dame, while certainly still a cathedral, is not very active. I've been to daily Mass in Notre Dame, and it was completely underpopulated, when compared to other, poorer cathedrals I've been to, including in my own state. I've been to many Catholic locales, and there are many poor Catholic artisans who would be willing to create beautiful Catholic art if they had resources. I'd rather they get the resources, than some secular artisan simply trying to copy Catholic art. I would rather see resources go to actual Catholics to be used in an actual Catholic place of worship that is frequented and populated than to non-Catholic artisans attempting to mimick Catholic beauty to restore a building that is not actually used. The fact is that the well-loved parish stands a chance of becoming a Notre Dame of the future, whereas, Notre Dame itself is likely to fade away and become a museum, unless the people of France actually decide to become Catholic again. The truth is that, it was the underlying belief in the Catholic world view that made Notre Dame the legend it is today (the constant creation of beauty, the grandeur, the preservation through the ages). No amount of money to secular authorities can possibly recreate that exact mythos, whereas it could if sent to another diocese that still practiced. EDIT: perhaps I'm wrong and Notre dame is more active than I thought and I just visited at a bad time, but from what I've read, there's not many actual Catholics in France, at least when compared to California.
      - dbasedweeb 8y ago
        Please just stop. Even your attempt at mitigation through edit is wrong, and it would have been trivial for you to correct your misapprehension. There are an estimated 10 million Catholics in California compared to between 27-58 million in France. Besides, the value of the place as a cultural institution visited by 13m+ a year just to see it isn’t something you should dismiss along with its centuries of cultural significance just because it offends your religious sensibilities. It’s also a miserable stance to take while the place is still literally on fire.
carlob 8y ago
Just a point in clarification: when you say antique, that means mid 19th century. The original 13th century spire was removed in 1786 because it was falling apart.
- kweks 8y ago
  Apologies, I wasn't using 'antique' in a quantitative fashion, simply trying to convey that it was aged and dry. With that said, I was referring specifically to the carpentry in the roof itself, which dates before the spire itself. The smell of the roof space was incredible - deep, wooden and wise.
- zild3d 8y ago
  > when you say antique, that means mid 19th century Where is that coming from? I don't see any definitions that constrains antique to a specific time window, some definitions/laws include "at least 100 years old" Antique: a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique
  - pkamb 8y ago
    They meant that antique means "only" 19th century in this case because that's when the spire was installed. It's not as antique as the rest of the cathedral.
- idoubtit 8y ago
  André Finot, the spokesperson of Notre-Dame de Paris, announced soon after the fire was known that the roof's wood frame was doomed. This frame was in two parts: one side from oak beams of the 13th century, the other half from the 19th. Of course, the spire was in later part, since it was built by Viollet-Le-Duc. To prevent fire, there was no electricity wires in attic, because the oak beams were extremely dry.
krisrm 8y ago
This is awesome - thanks for sharing your story, and that photo. I'm sure that the detailed studies performed by you and others will be invaluable going forward - both with remembering and healing, and eventually perhaps, rebuilding.
adt2bt 8y ago
I cannot imagine how you feel right now. I've only been inside once two years ago, and I am devastated to see this structure burn. Can you perhaps comment on what restoration work may have caused this?
- kweks 8y ago
  Individually, it feels like an intimate acquaintance has died, and collectively it is a huge loss. Over the weeks we'd spent on the spire, we photographed and documented literally every square centimeter of the spire and roof space. Outside of its intrinsic value, the spire also held religious relics (Thorn from the Crown of Thorns etc..). They were apparently contained in the wind-vane on the top of the crow's nest. We were unable to access the crow's nest - the last 3 ladder rungs (the spire had iron foot pegs every 50cm or so up one side) had been removed - ( presumably to stop people from getting to the relics ) - and there was no way we could get access without installing scaffolding. There was so much hidden detail on the roof - works that would never be seen from the ground - invisible to everyone but the workers and artisans. Truly a loss. As for the cause, there would be some solace in an 'unavoidable' situation - I just hope it wasn't someone discarding a cigarette butt.
  - sharedfrog 8y ago
    > we photographed and documented literally every square centimeter of the spire and roof space. Are all those photos available somewhere?
qzw 8y ago
Thanks for sharing the photos. It's an incredible tragedy. I had the privilege of visiting Notre Dame twice, but I'm deeply saddened for all those who will not have the opportunity to see it in its former magnificent form, including my own young children. I only hope that some of it will remain and be a foundation for rebuilding.
pkamb 8y ago
Have any pictures of the wood or joints or signatures that you mention?
- kweks 8y ago
  My partner shot the inside of the spire, but I have a few quick shots. On one of the sides I did - there were the traces of what we could only assume to be some type of explosion (probably a stray explosive from WW2 ..?). There are also the eagles that were halfway up the spire. Curiously enough, there were six, each one had a number stamped on its head - if you traced the numbers, it made a star composed of 2 equilateral triangles. It seems the North Tower has since caught fire as well - so the bells will have gone, and all of the stored relics too - so some photos of those. https://imgur.com/gallery/Z9YOErf https://imgur.com/gallery/Z9YOErf
  - bobwaycott 8y ago
    The bells are in the South Tower, iirc.
    - kweks 8y ago
      No, they're in the North Tower. The bells are suspended in a wooden structure that is free-standing, and free moving inside the stone structure. This allows free movement when the bells are ringing, without stressing the stones. It was a priority to extinguish the north tower fire to prevent the bell structure from collapsing - the falling bells would have destroyed the stone structures on the way down, presumably triggering the collapse of both towers..
_bxg1 8y ago
Is it possible that the stone parts of the structure will be more resilient than the (apparently) wooden roof, and might survive if the fire is put out quickly enough?
- matt4077 8y ago
  Yes, the vertical structures are likely to survive. See any number of photos of post-WW2 cities. It’s debatable, however, how much that means. I suspect it serves more of a symbolic purpose, as a kernel of truth to a shared future fiction that the building is at least partially “original”. In terms of costs, I suspect integrating those structures is likely to be more expensive than rebuilding from scratch. The loss is also greater than just the building, as it contained a multitude of art, some of it part of the structure like the famous stained glass windows, some not.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    Hopeful news: https://twitter.com/KoliaDelesalle/status/1117865987670364160 https://twitter.com/KoliaDelesalle/status/111786598767036416...
  - novaRom 8y ago
    Costs aside, how much time would it be necessary to repair this cathedral? Years?
    - kweks 8y ago
      I'm not the person to ask (I was there as a photographer and rope worker) - but my partner estimates decades. It depends on the extent of the damage. For the moment, it seems that the entire building will be gutted - and presumably structurally unsound. If it has to be rebuilt from scratch - look to the Sagrada Familia for a time reference..
      - ldng 8y ago
        The Sagrada is not a good example as it is more complex than traditional gothic. Part of the original plans were supposedly unsound and several architects intervened over the decades. But granted, we're still probably talking decades.
lucasverra 8y ago
safe !!
GordonS 8y ago
Did you feel any need to engrave your own names for the next inspectors?
- kweks 8y ago
  I felt the desire, but didn't feel the need.
dmckeon 8y ago
With my sympathy for this tremendous loss, but could you comment on the accuracy of this report on the amount of lead metal in the spire (or is it the entire roof?) > The 3-meter-tall statues are being sent to southwestern France for work that is part of a 6 million-euro ($6.8 million) renovation project on the cathedral spire and its 250 tons of lead. https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cleaning-offers-rare-glimpse-of-Notre-Dame-13759711.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cleaning-offers-rare-gli...

by kweks 8y ago

Balgair 8y ago

The Bells of Notre Dame: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzDXgxaq94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzDXgxaq94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5wDX-pZLOs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5wDX-pZLOs It'll be decades, but if I'm very lucky enough to live very long, I may hear those peals myself.

bobwaycott 8y ago
The bells really are something when hearing in person. What a loss.

lambdasquirrel 8y ago

Maybe California could donate some fire-resistant redwood for the rebuilding?

tathougies 8y ago
No thanks. If we have any redwood left to be used for building, I'd rather have them go to the better attended local cathedrals, than a cathedral that is really no longer used.
- ddalex 8y ago
  What do you mean, not used? Mass was celebrated daily, and it's in active use as a place of worship.... or was, sadly
  - tathougies 8y ago
    I mean that Notre Dame, while certainly still a cathedral, is not very active. I've been to daily Mass in Notre Dame, and it was completely underpopulated, when compared to other, poorer cathedrals I've been to, including in my own state. I've been to many Catholic locales, and there are many poor Catholic artisans who would be willing to create beautiful Catholic art if they had resources. I'd rather they get the resources, than some secular artisan simply trying to copy Catholic art. I would rather see resources go to actual Catholics to be used in an actual Catholic place of worship that is frequented and populated than to non-Catholic artisans attempting to mimick Catholic beauty to restore a building that is not actually used. The fact is that the well-loved parish stands a chance of becoming a Notre Dame of the future, whereas, Notre Dame itself is likely to fade away and become a museum, unless the people of France actually decide to become Catholic again. The truth is that, it was the underlying belief in the Catholic world view that made Notre Dame the legend it is today (the constant creation of beauty, the grandeur, the preservation through the ages). No amount of money to secular authorities can possibly recreate that exact mythos, whereas it could if sent to another diocese that still practiced. EDIT: perhaps I'm wrong and Notre dame is more active than I thought and I just visited at a bad time, but from what I've read, there's not many actual Catholics in France, at least when compared to California.
    - dbasedweeb 8y ago
      Please just stop. Even your attempt at mitigation through edit is wrong, and it would have been trivial for you to correct your misapprehension. There are an estimated 10 million Catholics in California compared to between 27-58 million in France. Besides, the value of the place as a cultural institution visited by 13m+ a year just to see it isn’t something you should dismiss along with its centuries of cultural significance just because it offends your religious sensibilities. It’s also a miserable stance to take while the place is still literally on fire.

carlob 8y ago

Just a point in clarification: when you say antique, that means mid 19th century. The original 13th century spire was removed in 1786 because it was falling apart.

kweks 8y ago
Apologies, I wasn't using 'antique' in a quantitative fashion, simply trying to convey that it was aged and dry. With that said, I was referring specifically to the carpentry in the roof itself, which dates before the spire itself. The smell of the roof space was incredible - deep, wooden and wise.
zild3d 8y ago
> when you say antique, that means mid 19th century Where is that coming from? I don't see any definitions that constrains antique to a specific time window, some definitions/laws include "at least 100 years old" Antique: a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique
- pkamb 8y ago
  They meant that antique means "only" 19th century in this case because that's when the spire was installed. It's not as antique as the rest of the cathedral.
idoubtit 8y ago
André Finot, the spokesperson of Notre-Dame de Paris, announced soon after the fire was known that the roof's wood frame was doomed. This frame was in two parts: one side from oak beams of the 13th century, the other half from the 19th. Of course, the spire was in later part, since it was built by Viollet-Le-Duc. To prevent fire, there was no electricity wires in attic, because the oak beams were extremely dry.

krisrm 8y ago

This is awesome - thanks for sharing your story, and that photo. I'm sure that the detailed studies performed by you and others will be invaluable going forward - both with remembering and healing, and eventually perhaps, rebuilding.

adt2bt 8y ago

I cannot imagine how you feel right now. I've only been inside once two years ago, and I am devastated to see this structure burn. Can you perhaps comment on what restoration work may have caused this?

kweks 8y ago
Individually, it feels like an intimate acquaintance has died, and collectively it is a huge loss. Over the weeks we'd spent on the spire, we photographed and documented literally every square centimeter of the spire and roof space. Outside of its intrinsic value, the spire also held religious relics (Thorn from the Crown of Thorns etc..). They were apparently contained in the wind-vane on the top of the crow's nest. We were unable to access the crow's nest - the last 3 ladder rungs (the spire had iron foot pegs every 50cm or so up one side) had been removed - ( presumably to stop people from getting to the relics ) - and there was no way we could get access without installing scaffolding. There was so much hidden detail on the roof - works that would never be seen from the ground - invisible to everyone but the workers and artisans. Truly a loss. As for the cause, there would be some solace in an 'unavoidable' situation - I just hope it wasn't someone discarding a cigarette butt.
- sharedfrog 8y ago
  > we photographed and documented literally every square centimeter of the spire and roof space. Are all those photos available somewhere?

qzw 8y ago

Thanks for sharing the photos. It's an incredible tragedy. I had the privilege of visiting Notre Dame twice, but I'm deeply saddened for all those who will not have the opportunity to see it in its former magnificent form, including my own young children. I only hope that some of it will remain and be a foundation for rebuilding.

pkamb 8y ago

Have any pictures of the wood or joints or signatures that you mention?

kweks 8y ago
My partner shot the inside of the spire, but I have a few quick shots. On one of the sides I did - there were the traces of what we could only assume to be some type of explosion (probably a stray explosive from WW2 ..?). There are also the eagles that were halfway up the spire. Curiously enough, there were six, each one had a number stamped on its head - if you traced the numbers, it made a star composed of 2 equilateral triangles. It seems the North Tower has since caught fire as well - so the bells will have gone, and all of the stored relics too - so some photos of those. https://imgur.com/gallery/Z9YOErf https://imgur.com/gallery/Z9YOErf
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  The bells are in the South Tower, iirc.
  - kweks 8y ago
    No, they're in the North Tower. The bells are suspended in a wooden structure that is free-standing, and free moving inside the stone structure. This allows free movement when the bells are ringing, without stressing the stones. It was a priority to extinguish the north tower fire to prevent the bell structure from collapsing - the falling bells would have destroyed the stone structures on the way down, presumably triggering the collapse of both towers..

_bxg1 8y ago

Is it possible that the stone parts of the structure will be more resilient than the (apparently) wooden roof, and might survive if the fire is put out quickly enough?

matt4077 8y ago
Yes, the vertical structures are likely to survive. See any number of photos of post-WW2 cities. It’s debatable, however, how much that means. I suspect it serves more of a symbolic purpose, as a kernel of truth to a shared future fiction that the building is at least partially “original”. In terms of costs, I suspect integrating those structures is likely to be more expensive than rebuilding from scratch. The loss is also greater than just the building, as it contained a multitude of art, some of it part of the structure like the famous stained glass windows, some not.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Hopeful news: https://twitter.com/KoliaDelesalle/status/1117865987670364160 https://twitter.com/KoliaDelesalle/status/111786598767036416...
- novaRom 8y ago
  Costs aside, how much time would it be necessary to repair this cathedral? Years?
  - kweks 8y ago
    I'm not the person to ask (I was there as a photographer and rope worker) - but my partner estimates decades. It depends on the extent of the damage. For the moment, it seems that the entire building will be gutted - and presumably structurally unsound. If it has to be rebuilt from scratch - look to the Sagrada Familia for a time reference..
    - ldng 8y ago
      The Sagrada is not a good example as it is more complex than traditional gothic. Part of the original plans were supposedly unsound and several architects intervened over the decades. But granted, we're still probably talking decades.

lucasverra 8y ago

safe !!

GordonS 8y ago

Did you feel any need to engrave your own names for the next inspectors?

kweks 8y ago
I felt the desire, but didn't feel the need.

dmckeon 8y ago

With my sympathy for this tremendous loss, but could you comment on the accuracy of this report on the amount of lead metal in the spire (or is it the entire roof?) > The 3-meter-tall statues are being sent to southwestern France for work that is part of a 6 million-euro ($6.8 million) renovation project on the cathedral spire and its 250 tons of lead. https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cleaning-offers-rare-glimpse-of-Notre-Dame-13759711.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cleaning-offers-rare-gli...