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When ever I think of traveling through a wormhole/blackhole, I imagine you would be squished and crushed and come out the other end as pure vaporized energy. T

When ever I think of traveling through a wormhole/blackhole, I imagine you would be squished and crushed and come out the other end as pure vaporized energy. This makes me wonder, if there is the potential for our beings (or things) be able to be vaporized and then recreated to original form. If we are just mass and particles, this should be possible?

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Its all about information. The order of atoms to make a person is information. No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. So, no.
- nikofeyn 7y ago
  > No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. that is only true in one direction though, right?
  - Retra 7y ago
    There is only one direction through the event horizon of a black hole.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      I thought Hawking radiation was going the other direction, but that it doesn't carry information about the original mass/energy. Is that right?
      - Retra 7y ago
        I don't think there's a definitive answer there, nor any reason to believe Hawking radiation is produced inside an event horizon, rather than just outside it. The event horizon is pretty much defined by the boundary that radiation will not escape across, so I wouldn't assume Hawking radiation behaves any differently with respect to it.
        TheCraiggers 7y ago
        I believe you're right that the jury is still out about information loss. However, I believe that the energy from Hawking Radiation comes from the black hole itself. In that case it doesn't matter if it's inside or outside the event horizon- it's still 'leaking' energy/mass.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    From the point of view of something falling in you are correct. From the point of view of something further away watching the thing falling in, it takes forever. I think. Time dilation is easy to lose track of.
    - Filligree 7y ago
      It's a neat demonstration of the holographic principle. From the point of view of an outside observer, there's no difference between the surface of the black hole and its volume; they're two different ways to describe the same thing, of varying usefulness. Reaching the 'surface' of the event horizon is equivalent to reaching the infinite future of the hole. However, you'd still be spaghetti.
      - simias 7y ago
        For a large enough black hole you could theoretically pass the event horizon pre-spaghettification since the radius between the singularity and the horizon would be large enough that the tidal force wouldn't be unbearable. You may have enough time to realize that you've now passed the ultimate barrier before you're eventually torn to shreds by the singularity.
        ben_w 7y ago
        Topically, Messier 87* has a Schwarzschild radius of ~17.784 light hours. Saying that: I have no idea how much subjective time it takes to go that far, because I don’t know how much gravitational or velocity related time dilation is going on. Plus the highly non-Euclidian space where C != 2πr, but I can’t remember if it’s > or < and I’ve never asked if that’s more like correct circumference and different radius or correct radius and different circumference, relative to what a distant observer might expect, and by extension which of those ideas corresponds to Schwarzschild radius — angular appearance, or inward distance.
    - nikofeyn 7y ago
      that is my understanding as well. it feels almost meme like that from an observer’s point of view, a black hole will have a bunch of stuff “stuck” on its horizon. i haven’t ever seen elaborations of how it would actually look though.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- fmihaila 7y ago
  > No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. No information is lost. A copy of it can very well fall into the BH (and it does).
jniedrauer 7y ago
If you could 3d print things at the atomic level, then you could instantly advance the human race to a post scarcity society. It's the holy grail of 3d printing and of course everyone wants to do it. Your question has philosophical implications beyond just the mechanics, however.
- krapp 7y ago
  >If you could 3d print things at the atomic level, then you could instantly advance the human race to a post scarcity society. You still need energy, and you still need something to print with (not just the printer, but whatever substrate provides the atoms,) and the process is going to be somewhat inefficient due to thermodynamics. 3D printing a vegetable, likely, would still consume more resources than simply growing one in a garden. Plenty of room there for scarcity.
duxup 7y ago
That reminds me a bit of the Star Trek Voyager episode where the a group sends their dead from one dimension to another. Their bodies come through intact but some form of "neural energy emissions" is added to a local energy field. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Emanations_(episode) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Emanations_(episode)
chrxr 7y ago
The philosophical implications of this are the subject of one of my favorite web-comics: The Machine, from Existential Comics http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1 http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
- svnpenn 7y ago
  https://wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt https://wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt https://wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror) https://wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror)
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    What these two stories describe would surely be hell for a normal human and likely also equivalent AI consciousness. On the other hand, if you could run even a simple computer program in such a context, it opens interesting possibilities. In "The Jaunt" they describe some of the periods lasting up to billions of years - imagine you could keep a simple algorithm (say prime factorization) running for that long, without the associated energy costs and get the results instantaneously from your point of view. BTW, of course people from Orions Arm have put together something similar but actually remotely physically plausible using a concept called "Tipler Oracle": https://orionsarm.com/eg-article/48507a11adbd7 https://orionsarm.com/eg-article/48507a11adbd7
- Thinkx220 7y ago
  I don't think you can equate the teleportation station with sleep since sleep isnt a break in consciousness but more like a transition into a lower level of consciousness.
  - Filligree 7y ago
    What about concussions?
martin-adams 7y ago
Even if we are just mass and particles, then what happens if you just skip the vaporizing part. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI)
lupire 7y ago
Uncertainty principle says...probably not. It's impossible to make a complete copy of the pattern. Even aside from that -- it's unlikely to be practical to scan something down to the smallest level level of matter, because the tools we use to manipulate things can't manipulate things smaller than their own finest details. So there's a "glass wall" in that you can only replicate things less finely detailed than the replicator. That works fine for macroscopic things (that's why you can buy a 3D printer today), but is implausible for things that we believe to be as finely detailed as our machines.
- lisper 7y ago
  > Uncertainty principle says...probably not. It's impossible to make a complete copy of the pattern. That depends on what "the pattern" is. You can make an "exact" copy of a digital file, but that's because the semantics of digital data don't depend on the fine details of the physical representation (that's the whole point of going digital). We don't yet know what level of detail of our physical state actually matters. If you take a single atom in your brain and move it somewhere else, does that matter? Probably not. What about ten atoms? Again, probably not. But at some point as the number goes up the answer must change. We don't know where the boundary is, and we don't know how close it is to the theoretical and technological limits of copying. But I don't think we can rule out the possibility of cloning a human brain in principle based on current knowledge.
- pontifier 7y ago
  That's what the "Heisinberg compensators" in star trek fix. I heard this phrase in an episode once, and decided to figure out how that could even work... What I came up with was the idea that the scanning stage doesn't need to gather exact data because it really doesn't matter. You just need to get averages, and then build up a model that matches the statistics... (you don't need to discover the exact energy and momentum of every particle, just measure the temperature) Basically you get teleporter jpeg compression... good enough to fool you, just don't use it too many times without keeping the raw data:)
  - Zardoz84 7y ago
GenericsMotors 7y ago
You've just described a Stargate from the SG1 universe :) Gates disintegrate objects that pass their event horizon, transmit the energy and "pattern" of the object to the exit gate which rebuilds them. Essentially everyone in that universe that has stepped through a Stargate has "died" and it's their copies currently walking around.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Its all about information. The order of atoms to make a person is information. No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. So, no.

nikofeyn 7y ago
> No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. that is only true in one direction though, right?
- Retra 7y ago
  There is only one direction through the event horizon of a black hole.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    I thought Hawking radiation was going the other direction, but that it doesn't carry information about the original mass/energy. Is that right?
    - Retra 7y ago
      I don't think there's a definitive answer there, nor any reason to believe Hawking radiation is produced inside an event horizon, rather than just outside it. The event horizon is pretty much defined by the boundary that radiation will not escape across, so I wouldn't assume Hawking radiation behaves any differently with respect to it.
      - TheCraiggers 7y ago
        I believe you're right that the jury is still out about information loss. However, I believe that the energy from Hawking Radiation comes from the black hole itself. In that case it doesn't matter if it's inside or outside the event horizon- it's still 'leaking' energy/mass.
- ben_w 7y ago
  From the point of view of something falling in you are correct. From the point of view of something further away watching the thing falling in, it takes forever. I think. Time dilation is easy to lose track of.
  - Filligree 7y ago
    It's a neat demonstration of the holographic principle. From the point of view of an outside observer, there's no difference between the surface of the black hole and its volume; they're two different ways to describe the same thing, of varying usefulness. Reaching the 'surface' of the event horizon is equivalent to reaching the infinite future of the hole. However, you'd still be spaghetti.
    - simias 7y ago
      For a large enough black hole you could theoretically pass the event horizon pre-spaghettification since the radius between the singularity and the horizon would be large enough that the tidal force wouldn't be unbearable. You may have enough time to realize that you've now passed the ultimate barrier before you're eventually torn to shreds by the singularity.
      - ben_w 7y ago
        Topically, Messier 87* has a Schwarzschild radius of ~17.784 light hours. Saying that: I have no idea how much subjective time it takes to go that far, because I don’t know how much gravitational or velocity related time dilation is going on. Plus the highly non-Euclidian space where C != 2πr, but I can’t remember if it’s > or < and I’ve never asked if that’s more like correct circumference and different radius or correct radius and different circumference, relative to what a distant observer might expect, and by extension which of those ideas corresponds to Schwarzschild radius — angular appearance, or inward distance.
  - nikofeyn 7y ago
    that is my understanding as well. it feels almost meme like that from an observer’s point of view, a black hole will have a bunch of stuff “stuck” on its horizon. i haven’t ever seen elaborations of how it would actually look though.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
fmihaila 7y ago
> No information passes thru the event horizon of a black hole. No information is lost. A copy of it can very well fall into the BH (and it does).

jniedrauer 7y ago

If you could 3d print things at the atomic level, then you could instantly advance the human race to a post scarcity society. It's the holy grail of 3d printing and of course everyone wants to do it. Your question has philosophical implications beyond just the mechanics, however.

krapp 7y ago
>If you could 3d print things at the atomic level, then you could instantly advance the human race to a post scarcity society. You still need energy, and you still need something to print with (not just the printer, but whatever substrate provides the atoms,) and the process is going to be somewhat inefficient due to thermodynamics. 3D printing a vegetable, likely, would still consume more resources than simply growing one in a garden. Plenty of room there for scarcity.

duxup 7y ago

That reminds me a bit of the Star Trek Voyager episode where the a group sends their dead from one dimension to another. Their bodies come through intact but some form of "neural energy emissions" is added to a local energy field. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Emanations_(episode) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Emanations_(episode)

chrxr 7y ago

The philosophical implications of this are the subject of one of my favorite web-comics: The Machine, from Existential Comics http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1 http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

svnpenn 7y ago
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt https://wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt https://wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror) https://wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror)
- m4rtink 7y ago
  What these two stories describe would surely be hell for a normal human and likely also equivalent AI consciousness. On the other hand, if you could run even a simple computer program in such a context, it opens interesting possibilities. In "The Jaunt" they describe some of the periods lasting up to billions of years - imagine you could keep a simple algorithm (say prime factorization) running for that long, without the associated energy costs and get the results instantaneously from your point of view. BTW, of course people from Orions Arm have put together something similar but actually remotely physically plausible using a concept called "Tipler Oracle": https://orionsarm.com/eg-article/48507a11adbd7 https://orionsarm.com/eg-article/48507a11adbd7
Thinkx220 7y ago
I don't think you can equate the teleportation station with sleep since sleep isnt a break in consciousness but more like a transition into a lower level of consciousness.
- Filligree 7y ago
  What about concussions?

martin-adams 7y ago

Even if we are just mass and particles, then what happens if you just skip the vaporizing part. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI)

lupire 7y ago

Uncertainty principle says...probably not. It's impossible to make a complete copy of the pattern. Even aside from that -- it's unlikely to be practical to scan something down to the smallest level level of matter, because the tools we use to manipulate things can't manipulate things smaller than their own finest details. So there's a "glass wall" in that you can only replicate things less finely detailed than the replicator. That works fine for macroscopic things (that's why you can buy a 3D printer today), but is implausible for things that we believe to be as finely detailed as our machines.

lisper 7y ago
> Uncertainty principle says...probably not. It's impossible to make a complete copy of the pattern. That depends on what "the pattern" is. You can make an "exact" copy of a digital file, but that's because the semantics of digital data don't depend on the fine details of the physical representation (that's the whole point of going digital). We don't yet know what level of detail of our physical state actually matters. If you take a single atom in your brain and move it somewhere else, does that matter? Probably not. What about ten atoms? Again, probably not. But at some point as the number goes up the answer must change. We don't know where the boundary is, and we don't know how close it is to the theoretical and technological limits of copying. But I don't think we can rule out the possibility of cloning a human brain in principle based on current knowledge.
pontifier 7y ago
That's what the "Heisinberg compensators" in star trek fix. I heard this phrase in an episode once, and decided to figure out how that could even work... What I came up with was the idea that the scanning stage doesn't need to gather exact data because it really doesn't matter. You just need to get averages, and then build up a model that matches the statistics... (you don't need to discover the exact energy and momentum of every particle, just measure the temperature) Basically you get teleporter jpeg compression... good enough to fool you, just don't use it too many times without keeping the raw data:)
- Zardoz84 7y ago

GenericsMotors 7y ago

You've just described a Stargate from the SG1 universe :) Gates disintegrate objects that pass their event horizon, transmit the energy and "pattern" of the object to the exit gate which rebuilds them. Essentially everyone in that universe that has stepped through a Stargate has "died" and it's their copies currently walking around.