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Here is some context. There are two collections of frameworks available for iOS developers. The private frameworks cannot be used by non-apple applications. In

Here is some context. There are two collections of frameworks available for iOS developers. The private frameworks cannot be used by non-apple applications. In some cases, this restriction makes it impossible for an App developer to develop an App that has the same functionality as the corresponding Apple app. Just to pick one example, the Music App has a download-to-device option (a cloud with an arrow) which allows users to move cloud-stored songs from their iTunes library onto their device. This functionality is not available in the iOS SDK. In my opinion, there is legitimacy to the complaints being investigated.

oblio 8y ago
Microsoft was attacked for the exact same thing 2 decades ago. If you make a platform, you shouldn't have any private APIs that only your applications can use, in my opinion.
- simonh 8y ago
  I think there's a reasonable exception for some built-in applications that manage core services, but that privilege should be used sparingly and for clearly benign or user-friendly reasons. It shouldn't be used to gain a competitive advantage in revenue-generating applications or services. Hmm, after writing the above it occurred to me that cloud storage like iCloud might have to be an exception to that rule for pragmatic reasons. iCloud is clearly a competitor to Dropbox, but it is also used to store backups of the phone's system settings and such. On the one hand Dropbox should be able to compete fairly against iCloud for offline app data storage, but I don't think it should have access to do backups of phone system settings. I suppose the way out of that conundrum is to ensure that any use of iCloud for system related storage should not be part of a commercial service offering, which is sort of how it works as you can do that on the iCloud free tier. Still, it's an interesting edge case that shows how tricky these questions can be.
  - oblio 8y ago
    > but I don't think it should have access to do backups of phone system settings. Why not?
    - simonh 8y ago
      Because then it could read the phone's system settings, which could have dire security and privacy implications. It would also presumably need the ability to change them, because otherwise how do you restore the backups?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - vlovich123 8y ago
        FWIW Apple encrypts all the data with your encryption key. So even if you swapped it out with a consumer solution like Dropbox that wouldn't make it less secure. It would make it more expensive for Apple to maintain that connection & increased customer support since people would complain to Apple when Dropbox had an issue.
      - oblio 8y ago
        Ok... then what about all those backup solutions we've been using on desktops? Should we restrict backups just to OS providers because they're "safe"?
- gruez 8y ago
  >Microsoft was attacked for the exact same thing 2 decades ago Can you elaborate on this? Windows isn't sandboxed, and there's no approval process, so I don't see any reason why a program can't use private Windows APIs.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Because they’re undocumented, for one.
    - gruez 8y ago
      Are you suggesting Microsoft (and other OS vendors) should be obligated to document all of their APIs? What constitutes an API and how is it different than private functions? Besides, they already provide documentation -to an extent- by providing symbol files.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        Am I saying that? No, but the GP specifically did. It only matters when you have something like a monopoly. The issue with Microsoft was that they leveraged their operating system monopoly to create a monopoly on desktop office software, and part of the way they did it was by using secret, private, undocumented, proprietary, whatever you want to call them, APIs or features built into Windows for Office. A company is not allowed to give itself an unfair advantage when they have a monopoly to spread to new markets. That constitutes abuse. Not sure about your question about private functions, because that’s a feature of OOP and not really relevant. When Microsoft comes out with a new version of Office that works with a brand new version of Windows using features of their competitors did not know existed, I think it’s pretty obvious why their competitors are unable to have a product on the market in a timely fashion using those functions. Again, that’s only relevant if they have a monopoly on a market. Of course, a company is not otherwise required to help competitors do anything. See: http://lowendmac.com/2008/rise-of-microsoft-monopoly/ http://lowendmac.com/2008/rise-of-microsoft-monopoly/ “I have decided that we should not publish these extensions. We should wait until we have a way to do a high level of integration that will be harder for likes of Notes, WordPerfect to achieve, and which will give Office a real advantage . . . We can’t compete with Lotus and WordPerfect/Novell without this.” - Bill Gates, 1994
sbr464 8y ago
I get reminded of this the most while driving and using Google Maps on an iPhone. I've definitely had several close calls in traffic, with faceId requiring me to type the password, switch back to the maps app etc, since google maps can't stay open while the phone is locked like apple maps. I think it's a pretty serious dark pattern when you consciously make an app unsafe for your user. If their's a setting I'm missing to allow Google maps to stay on the lock screen, I'd love to know.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  Why can’t you keep Google Maps open instead? I disabled autolock long ago though - so maybe that’s not how you’re supposed to use them?
  - 0xffff2 8y ago
    I don't use Google Maps, but Waze stays open just fine. As long as it's focused, my screen stays on and my phone stays unlocked. I don't understand OP's phrasing. They seems to be saying they want to use maps while the phone is locked, which doiesn't make any sense to me.
    - vlovich123 8y ago
      Apple Maps on iOS will actually display the ongoing navigation on the lock screen. That's what the user is asking of for Google Maps but currently it's restricted to Apple Maps. The main advantage is saving battery life since the screen isn't on in the lock-screen mode except preceding a change. Also, if a passenger is using the phone (e.g. changing the music) and accidentally locks it you still have access to navigation.
- everyone 8y ago
  Please dont fiddle with your phone and drive. It is illgeal* , and more importantly you will end up killing an innocent person. *Perhaps not in your specific country.
  - 8y ago
burtonator 8y ago
Can this be implemented manually? I mean it doesn't negate your point just curious whether this is a soft or hard limitation.
- herodotus 8y ago
  No it cannot: there is no way to get the URL of the asset if it is stored in the iTunes library on the cloud. There is at least one open bug report about this issue.
gruez 8y ago
>The private frameworks cannot be used by non-apple applications. In some cases, this restriction makes it impossible for an App developer to develop an App that has the same functionality as the corresponding Apple app. How's this any different than Android, where some functionality is gated behind permissions that require signature or signatureOrSystem[1]? You could say that there's rooting/LineageOS, but those are out of reach for most users, and are entirely at the whim of the manufacturer. [1] https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/permission-element https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/permissi...
- deogeo 8y ago
  If it's no different, then Android should be next in line for an investigation.
musicale 8y ago
Regarding the example of not being able to download music from the cloud to the device, on iOS and Android: Apple's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Spotify's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Google's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Amazon's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback.
saagarjha 8y ago
Just to be clear, you are free to download your own streaming service's music. You just cannot download iTunes music–you must stream it. So this only applies if you're making an app to play music from iTunes.
- herodotus 8y ago
  Yes, you are right. But the point is that it is impossible for a third party to make a music playing App that plays music in a users' own iTunes music library and that has all the functionality of the corresponding Apple app. Note that I just chose this example because I am familiar with it. There are many "private" frameworks, all of which (a) offer functionality and (b) are off limits to non-Apple apps.

oblio 8y ago

Microsoft was attacked for the exact same thing 2 decades ago. If you make a platform, you shouldn't have any private APIs that only your applications can use, in my opinion.

simonh 8y ago
I think there's a reasonable exception for some built-in applications that manage core services, but that privilege should be used sparingly and for clearly benign or user-friendly reasons. It shouldn't be used to gain a competitive advantage in revenue-generating applications or services. Hmm, after writing the above it occurred to me that cloud storage like iCloud might have to be an exception to that rule for pragmatic reasons. iCloud is clearly a competitor to Dropbox, but it is also used to store backups of the phone's system settings and such. On the one hand Dropbox should be able to compete fairly against iCloud for offline app data storage, but I don't think it should have access to do backups of phone system settings. I suppose the way out of that conundrum is to ensure that any use of iCloud for system related storage should not be part of a commercial service offering, which is sort of how it works as you can do that on the iCloud free tier. Still, it's an interesting edge case that shows how tricky these questions can be.
- oblio 8y ago
  > but I don't think it should have access to do backups of phone system settings. Why not?
  - simonh 8y ago
    Because then it could read the phone's system settings, which could have dire security and privacy implications. It would also presumably need the ability to change them, because otherwise how do you restore the backups?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - vlovich123 8y ago
      FWIW Apple encrypts all the data with your encryption key. So even if you swapped it out with a consumer solution like Dropbox that wouldn't make it less secure. It would make it more expensive for Apple to maintain that connection & increased customer support since people would complain to Apple when Dropbox had an issue.
    - oblio 8y ago
      Ok... then what about all those backup solutions we've been using on desktops? Should we restrict backups just to OS providers because they're "safe"?
gruez 8y ago
>Microsoft was attacked for the exact same thing 2 decades ago Can you elaborate on this? Windows isn't sandboxed, and there's no approval process, so I don't see any reason why a program can't use private Windows APIs.
- code_duck 8y ago
  Because they’re undocumented, for one.
  - gruez 8y ago
    Are you suggesting Microsoft (and other OS vendors) should be obligated to document all of their APIs? What constitutes an API and how is it different than private functions? Besides, they already provide documentation -to an extent- by providing symbol files.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      Am I saying that? No, but the GP specifically did. It only matters when you have something like a monopoly. The issue with Microsoft was that they leveraged their operating system monopoly to create a monopoly on desktop office software, and part of the way they did it was by using secret, private, undocumented, proprietary, whatever you want to call them, APIs or features built into Windows for Office. A company is not allowed to give itself an unfair advantage when they have a monopoly to spread to new markets. That constitutes abuse. Not sure about your question about private functions, because that’s a feature of OOP and not really relevant. When Microsoft comes out with a new version of Office that works with a brand new version of Windows using features of their competitors did not know existed, I think it’s pretty obvious why their competitors are unable to have a product on the market in a timely fashion using those functions. Again, that’s only relevant if they have a monopoly on a market. Of course, a company is not otherwise required to help competitors do anything. See: http://lowendmac.com/2008/rise-of-microsoft-monopoly/ http://lowendmac.com/2008/rise-of-microsoft-monopoly/ “I have decided that we should not publish these extensions. We should wait until we have a way to do a high level of integration that will be harder for likes of Notes, WordPerfect to achieve, and which will give Office a real advantage . . . We can’t compete with Lotus and WordPerfect/Novell without this.” - Bill Gates, 1994

sbr464 8y ago

I get reminded of this the most while driving and using Google Maps on an iPhone. I've definitely had several close calls in traffic, with faceId requiring me to type the password, switch back to the maps app etc, since google maps can't stay open while the phone is locked like apple maps. I think it's a pretty serious dark pattern when you consciously make an app unsafe for your user. If their's a setting I'm missing to allow Google maps to stay on the lock screen, I'd love to know.

heavenlyblue 8y ago
Why can’t you keep Google Maps open instead? I disabled autolock long ago though - so maybe that’s not how you’re supposed to use them?
- 0xffff2 8y ago
  I don't use Google Maps, but Waze stays open just fine. As long as it's focused, my screen stays on and my phone stays unlocked. I don't understand OP's phrasing. They seems to be saying they want to use maps while the phone is locked, which doiesn't make any sense to me.
  - vlovich123 8y ago
    Apple Maps on iOS will actually display the ongoing navigation on the lock screen. That's what the user is asking of for Google Maps but currently it's restricted to Apple Maps. The main advantage is saving battery life since the screen isn't on in the lock-screen mode except preceding a change. Also, if a passenger is using the phone (e.g. changing the music) and accidentally locks it you still have access to navigation.
everyone 8y ago
Please dont fiddle with your phone and drive. It is illgeal* , and more importantly you will end up killing an innocent person. *Perhaps not in your specific country.
- 8y ago

burtonator 8y ago

Can this be implemented manually? I mean it doesn't negate your point just curious whether this is a soft or hard limitation.

herodotus 8y ago
No it cannot: there is no way to get the URL of the asset if it is stored in the iTunes library on the cloud. There is at least one open bug report about this issue.

gruez 8y ago

>The private frameworks cannot be used by non-apple applications. In some cases, this restriction makes it impossible for an App developer to develop an App that has the same functionality as the corresponding Apple app. How's this any different than Android, where some functionality is gated behind permissions that require signature or signatureOrSystem[1]? You could say that there's rooting/LineageOS, but those are out of reach for most users, and are entirely at the whim of the manufacturer. [1] https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/permission-element https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/permissi...

deogeo 8y ago
If it's no different, then Android should be next in line for an investigation.

musicale 8y ago

Regarding the example of not being able to download music from the cloud to the device, on iOS and Android: Apple's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Spotify's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Google's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback. Amazon's music app can stream music from the cloud or download it to the device for offline playback.

saagarjha 8y ago

Just to be clear, you are free to download your own streaming service's music. You just cannot download iTunes music–you must stream it. So this only applies if you're making an app to play music from iTunes.

herodotus 8y ago
Yes, you are right. But the point is that it is impossible for a third party to make a music playing App that plays music in a users' own iTunes music library and that has all the functionality of the corresponding Apple app. Note that I just chose this example because I am familiar with it. There are many "private" frameworks, all of which (a) offer functionality and (b) are off limits to non-Apple apps.