15 ms·

It will be easier to understand if you've followed the movement. Most of those companies are not forcing their employees to work 996 on paper. But if you don't

by rqs 7y ago

It will be easier to understand if you've followed the movement. Most of those companies are not forcing their employees to work 996 on paper. But if you don't, then first, your team leader will give you some hint to ask you to stay longer. If you still don't, you will be fired for any number of reasons (KPI is too low for example). Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just keep giving them tasks which cannot be finished without work 996, plus some peer pressures (One of it is "Boss's still here, you can't leave"). Jack Ma's "forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’" statement is basically the same thing: You need to fight for your own future. On the surface, it's correct, but underneath it, he's trying to make you believe Personal strive === Overwork. It worth notice that Jack Ma also said "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long" (“如果你热爱（工作），其实12个小时不算太长”[0]) just days ago. Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job. Some background: Jack Ma is a lair who also likes to pretend to be a Life Advisor, he will sometime throw out some bullshit to convince others to sacrifice for him. You need to read between lines. > “Those who can stick to a 996 schedule are those who have found their passion beyond monetary gains,” Ma wrote. You see what's going on here :) [0] https://finance.sina.com.cn/china/gncj/2019-04-12/doc-ihvhiewr5310241.shtml https://finance.sina.com.cn/china/gncj/2019-04-12/doc-ihvhie... Edited to fix some grammar problem. Hope that will make it easier to read. Thanks for pointing out :) Yes, I fixed it again.

drukenemo 7y ago
Nice comments, but may I suggest that you check your spellings before posting? Lots of things I had to interpret what you meant to say based on mispellings.
- npo_ 7y ago
  In case you're not trolling, it's likely that the commenter you're replying to doesn't speak English as a first language. Considering the topic of this post (and the hanzi in their comment), I'd venture to say s/he speaks some dialect of Chinese as a first language.
  - drukenemo 7y ago
    I’m not trolling, can’t I give feedback to someone? It didn’t look like misspellings from a non native (e.g. catle vs cattle), but from rushed typing (e.g. he truned back). He fixed his post now, so I’m making due with examples to illustrate where I was coming from.
- rqs 7y ago
  Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, that may lead to some problem because Chinese grammar can be very different to English. Maybe I should start to use grammarly from now on. Sum up the post: 1. What Jack Ma is trying to do, is equalizing Personal strive and overwork (for him). 2. In China, company have many ways to force employees stay in long hour without literally say so. For example "When boss don't leave, you don't leave", and/or giving out tasks that you can't finish without overwork.
  - acct1771 7y ago
    Think twice about Grammarly, especially if you're a professional... You're doing fine for nonnative, just still mildly noticeable.
  - alistairSH 7y ago
    I have to assume drunkenemo is trolling because your English is as good as many native speakers (at least when it comes to casual online communication). There are signs you aren't a native speaker, but nothing that makes your post hard to understand or in any way distracting.
    - rqs 7y ago
      Maybe that's because I got my English mode fully warmed up during the editing process. Don't blame drunkenemo :)
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    Your English is fine. Native English speakers' writing is often replete with typos and misspellings and improper grammar.
p49k 7y ago
Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just keep giving them tasks which cannot be finished without... This sounds exactly like the accounts of what it’s like to work as an Amazon delivery driver.
- acct1771 7y ago
  Or a drive thru employee. Or an Uber driver trying to make minimum wage. Hm.
  - exelius 7y ago
    But like, if you were more passionate about your job, it would be more rewarding! Maybe not monetarily; but think of all the interesting people you get to talk to as an Uber driver!
  - volkl48 7y ago
    A drive thru employee works a scheduled shift and when it's over they're done. I don't see how that example works with this topic of overtime/overwork.
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      Some fast-food employees even get benefits.
    - lordlimecat 7y ago
      Every foodservice place I ever worked in my youth got quite irate when someone worked more than 40 hours, because overtime is a lot more expensive than just hiring another worker.
    - acct1771 7y ago
      Most drive thru chains are using stopclocks to time how fast they get your food to you, from speaker to pull off..and it's not a reasonable metric.
kingo55 7y ago
Do you think tough working conditions are leading Chinese tech workers to leave China in search of better work/life balance?
- feenix566 7y ago
  The most recent episode of the Motley Fool Money podcast featured an interview with David Kuo in which he said manufacturers are leaving China for other asian countries because wages in China are rising. Rising wages is typically correlated with falling unemployment, which forces employers to provide better working conditions. So I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Chinese tech workers moving to employers who treat them with more respect. That will be the end of 996.
balabaster 7y ago
> "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long... Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job." First up, I'm not arguing against the fact that there are many many managers, bosses, directors and CEOs that use emotional manipulation to blackmail employees to do their bidding even though on paper they claim differently. They give it all sorts of names to make you believe this behaviour is okay. The most damaging use of emotive language makes you feel crazy for feeling the way you feel. This invalidation of your experience, of your feelings, is pulled straight out of the narcissist's playbook and it has a name - it's called gaslighting. Making you feel crazy and invalidating you for feeling the way you do. "If you loved this job, you'd do this for me. If you don't do this for me, you can't possibly love this job." Anyone who has escaped an emotionally abusive relationship will attest to how damaging this one technique is. It's often the tool of choice for a narcissist to maintain emotional control of their target. It's tough to spot because usually the people at the top got there by being charismatic and motivational. They're charming and make you want to follow them... the same way they treat their partners to get them into a relationship before they invalidate them and make them feel crazy to keep control of them and keep them from leaving. The language they're using to make you follow them is manipulation and is also another tool lifted directly from the narcissist's playbook. Beware of the way people make you feel to get you to play along. When you start to feel like your feelings are crazy and that you feel guilty for not wanting to play along, chances are you're being manipulated using these tools. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every... Secondly, the first part of the statement Ma made, given my own experience is, to an extent, true: "if you love your job, 12 hours is not very long." I tend to agree that if you're occupied by something you love to do or are fascinated by, 12 hours doesn't seem very long. My experience has been that it tends to go by in the blink of an eye. This statement can stand alone without any implication. I frequently work for 12-18 hours straight without even realizing I've done it and then wonder how I didn't even notice it had got dark and I've missed dinner. However, the opposing statement that if you don't work 12 hours, you don't love your job just isn't true in my experience. There are days, honestly, where I'm fairly apathetic towards work and I struggle to sit in front of my computer for even an hour. This doesn't mean I don't love my job. It just means I don't love what needs to be done right now. Just because all cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats.

by rqs 7y ago

drukenemo 7y ago

Nice comments, but may I suggest that you check your spellings before posting? Lots of things I had to interpret what you meant to say based on mispellings.

npo_ 7y ago
In case you're not trolling, it's likely that the commenter you're replying to doesn't speak English as a first language. Considering the topic of this post (and the hanzi in their comment), I'd venture to say s/he speaks some dialect of Chinese as a first language.
- drukenemo 7y ago
  I’m not trolling, can’t I give feedback to someone? It didn’t look like misspellings from a non native (e.g. catle vs cattle), but from rushed typing (e.g. he truned back). He fixed his post now, so I’m making due with examples to illustrate where I was coming from.
rqs 7y ago
Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, that may lead to some problem because Chinese grammar can be very different to English. Maybe I should start to use grammarly from now on. Sum up the post: 1. What Jack Ma is trying to do, is equalizing Personal strive and overwork (for him). 2. In China, company have many ways to force employees stay in long hour without literally say so. For example "When boss don't leave, you don't leave", and/or giving out tasks that you can't finish without overwork.
- acct1771 7y ago
  Think twice about Grammarly, especially if you're a professional... You're doing fine for nonnative, just still mildly noticeable.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  I have to assume drunkenemo is trolling because your English is as good as many native speakers (at least when it comes to casual online communication). There are signs you aren't a native speaker, but nothing that makes your post hard to understand or in any way distracting.
  - rqs 7y ago
    Maybe that's because I got my English mode fully warmed up during the editing process. Don't blame drunkenemo :)
- wavefunction 7y ago
  Your English is fine. Native English speakers' writing is often replete with typos and misspellings and improper grammar.

p49k 7y ago

Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just keep giving them tasks which cannot be finished without... This sounds exactly like the accounts of what it’s like to work as an Amazon delivery driver.

acct1771 7y ago
Or a drive thru employee. Or an Uber driver trying to make minimum wage. Hm.
- exelius 7y ago
  But like, if you were more passionate about your job, it would be more rewarding! Maybe not monetarily; but think of all the interesting people you get to talk to as an Uber driver!
- volkl48 7y ago
  A drive thru employee works a scheduled shift and when it's over they're done. I don't see how that example works with this topic of overtime/overwork.
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    Some fast-food employees even get benefits.
  - lordlimecat 7y ago
    Every foodservice place I ever worked in my youth got quite irate when someone worked more than 40 hours, because overtime is a lot more expensive than just hiring another worker.
  - acct1771 7y ago
    Most drive thru chains are using stopclocks to time how fast they get your food to you, from speaker to pull off..and it's not a reasonable metric.

kingo55 7y ago

Do you think tough working conditions are leading Chinese tech workers to leave China in search of better work/life balance?

feenix566 7y ago
The most recent episode of the Motley Fool Money podcast featured an interview with David Kuo in which he said manufacturers are leaving China for other asian countries because wages in China are rising. Rising wages is typically correlated with falling unemployment, which forces employers to provide better working conditions. So I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Chinese tech workers moving to employers who treat them with more respect. That will be the end of 996.

balabaster 7y ago

> "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long... Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job." First up, I'm not arguing against the fact that there are many many managers, bosses, directors and CEOs that use emotional manipulation to blackmail employees to do their bidding even though on paper they claim differently. They give it all sorts of names to make you believe this behaviour is okay. The most damaging use of emotive language makes you feel crazy for feeling the way you feel. This invalidation of your experience, of your feelings, is pulled straight out of the narcissist's playbook and it has a name - it's called gaslighting. Making you feel crazy and invalidating you for feeling the way you do. "If you loved this job, you'd do this for me. If you don't do this for me, you can't possibly love this job." Anyone who has escaped an emotionally abusive relationship will attest to how damaging this one technique is. It's often the tool of choice for a narcissist to maintain emotional control of their target. It's tough to spot because usually the people at the top got there by being charismatic and motivational. They're charming and make you want to follow them... the same way they treat their partners to get them into a relationship before they invalidate them and make them feel crazy to keep control of them and keep them from leaving. The language they're using to make you follow them is manipulation and is also another tool lifted directly from the narcissist's playbook. Beware of the way people make you feel to get you to play along. When you start to feel like your feelings are crazy and that you feel guilty for not wanting to play along, chances are you're being manipulated using these tools. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every... Secondly, the first part of the statement Ma made, given my own experience is, to an extent, true: "if you love your job, 12 hours is not very long." I tend to agree that if you're occupied by something you love to do or are fascinated by, 12 hours doesn't seem very long. My experience has been that it tends to go by in the blink of an eye. This statement can stand alone without any implication. I frequently work for 12-18 hours straight without even realizing I've done it and then wonder how I didn't even notice it had got dark and I've missed dinner. However, the opposing statement that if you don't work 12 hours, you don't love your job just isn't true in my experience. There are days, honestly, where I'm fairly apathetic towards work and I struggle to sit in front of my computer for even an hour. This doesn't mean I don't love my job. It just means I don't love what needs to be done right now. Just because all cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats.