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A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyone and above all report them to whoever appropriate. * It's important to remember that sexual harassment is not simple unwanted attention from someone you find unattractive. magamiako deleted his comment, but he was right on the money when he said that certain actions will be interpreted as innocuous flirting if the person perpetuating it is attractive, and as harassment if their are not. It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching. The latter must be eliminated from tech conferences. * Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations. The title reads "Eye candy is important": http://grab.by/grabs/bd8b294c0aa850b4b577012a258979a3.png http://grab.by/grabs/bd8b294c0aa850b4b577012a258979a3.png (Actual slides here: http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamericano-startup-in-italia-e-nel-mondo-1428557 http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamerica...). This was just after the "CouchDB performs like a porn star" scandal, and several women at the conference complimented me for pulling it off without objectifying anyone.

idm 16y ago
"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but there was a live IRC session running on the overhead, and each time a question was asked by a woman, IRC would be filled with lude and aggressively sexual remarks. It was totally uncomfortable! I think this situation qualifies as bona fide sexual harassment. Touching or groping someone in a sexual manner is assault (at least it can be in the US.) It's so far beyond mere harassment that it's not the point of the article... EDIT: for clarity...
- callahad 16y ago
  Are you perhaps thinking of Ian Bicking's "Topics of Interest" talk [0] from PyCon 2009? It definitely veered into the uncomfortable, but there was some reasonable handling of the situation during the talk, IIRC, and was definitely a catalyst in the PSF adopting a formal diversity statement [1] and trying to be encourage inclusivity in the community. [0]: http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/ http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/ [1]: http://www.python.org/community/diversity/ http://www.python.org/community/diversity/
  - idm 16y ago
    Yeah, that's the talk I was thinking about. UPDATE - after watching it again, they handled it pretty well.
- acangiano 16y ago
  > Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. I wasn't implying otherwise. Sexual remarks like the ones you describe are certainly uncalled for and a form of sexual harassment. What I meant is that it's important to draw the line between "awkward flirting" and harassment/assault of a sexual nature, so that severe and proper corrective actions can be taken when actual episodes of harassment or assault happen, and so that they cannot be easily dismissed. (I wasn't going for the distinction between harassment and assault in my comment, and I used the word harassment as an all-inclusive term for any form of sexual, inappropriate behavior).
- jacquesm 16y ago
  The same even happened in the chat during the start-up school webcasts. Very disturbing.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
khafra 16y ago
An unwanted flirtation is not sexual harassment, but repeated advances after the target of the advances has said "no" are sexual harassment.
- acangiano 16y ago
  Absolutely, but it's important to understand that a guy hitting on you is not sexual harassment. When you have made it clear that you are not interested, the guy needs to leave you alone though, or it can easily become harassment.
aneth 16y ago
I've written a number of comments about articles about sexism in tech and elsewhere that have been duly down voted. I find many such articles to be self-absorbed prudish feminism that turn innocuous events into harassment. However this is the first article to focus largely on real harassment and I generally agree with your sentiment. I don't think conferences are a place to have an entirely dry professional existence, but women should feel comfortable that they can interact with men without persistent come-ons. As immature as it may be, men make sexual jokes with men that they don't mean - the "how much for a #%^¥" comment in this article may have been such a comment directed toward a women in an attempt to relate, or it may have been sexist harassment. It's hard to say which from the article. Either way it's immature and reflects badly on the speaker but in only one instance is it real harassment. I suggest women give these men, many of whom are unsure how to relate to women, the benefit of the doubt that they are joking or just naive, possible even give them some straightforward advice. If someone is persistent, rude, physically assaulting, or otherwise clearly violating you, I think it's your responsibility to report this as well as not to blame the behavior on the entire conference.
blasdel 16y ago
magamiako didn't delete his own comment — he was banned several months ago, all his contributions since then are [dead] on arrival
ibejoeb 16y ago
Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."
- wtracy 16y ago
  That doesn't make it acceptable.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    Naturally, but we do need to keep the distinction.
- ebiester 16y ago
  It is creating an inhospitable environment. I know, it seems odd that people would be so sensitive to something that seems so minor, but think of it in terms of a group of bullies. There are very few actions that a bully takes that are out and out awful. Instead, it's the little things that accumulate. Those little things that, designed or not, let you know what others think your place is. It's rarely attractive men in speedos holding the laptops. The lunch isn't being held at a strip club where men are dancing. It's all these small things that add up to an intolerable environment. It's like little pricks of a needle. It's not that any individual one is "that bad", but it's the bigger picture when society looks at you as a voodoo doll.
- stevenbedrick 16y ago
  I disagree. That sort of slide (and its associated comment) is absolutely sexual harassment, in that it automatically sexualizes what is supposed to be a professional environment. Given the technology world's long and unpleasant track record of sexist behavior towards women (as well as towards... well, pretty much anybody who isn't, cisgendered, heterosexual, and male), I personally can think of very few ways that sexualizing a public technology presentation can do anything other than create (or contribute to) a hostile environment for a good chunk of the audience. Furthermore, that sort of slide sends a clear message to the audience about who the speaker thinks they're speaking to. In this case, it says that the speaker thinks that his audience is composed of heterosexual males[1], which <sarcasm>I'm sure feels just great to any women who might also be in the audience.</sarcasm> [1]: I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the author of those conference slides did not include them in an attempt to appeal to the audience's lesbian members. I am, of course, willing to be corrected on this point.
TomOfTTB 16y ago
I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women. That means not just respecting them but stepping up and dealing with a jerk who thinks he doesn’t have to. That’s part of being a man in our society (or at least it should be IMHO) I’m not saying women can’t do it too but I wouldn’t think less of a woman if they didn’t. I would think less of a man (and again I know how un-PC that sounds but it doesn’t make it less true)
- salemh 16y ago
  This post needs more up voting, re: the responsibility of those around the conferences (or any every-day situation) to step in (as men) to the aid of a women being harassed. Women, physically (at a 99% level), are weaker then men (this may spawn a large discussion), but at the simplistic level, deserve to feel safe within public and private places. I like to use an analogy when explaining the female mind to men who are not respectful of women's private space: imagine an 8 foot giant of a man whose only thoughts, leers, and actions speak to wanting to have sex with you (or rape you). Visualize that in your head, you may have a better appreciation for the "why's" of women and how they act in social circumstance.
- kbatten 16y ago
  I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.
  - ZoFreX 16y ago
    I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as physically weaker, but intellectually equal or superior. If I'm making a decision on whether I'm "taking someone seriously", physical strength isn't going to factor into that in many situations. In the context of FOSS conferences, their physical stature is completely orthogonal to whether I give a damn. From here I only need make the assumption that those physically weaker than their peers may need assistance sometimes, and we're basically there. Of course, I would not assert that all women need assistance, or that some women need assistance all the time - I know some girls that play rugby and I'd wager they could beat 95% of HN readers in a showdown. However the fact remains that many people believe that stronger people have a duty to protect weaker people, that many women are weaker than many men, and (importantly) that women are being targeted because they are women. I for one am going to step in if I see any shenanigans, because I am a man. Note on male camaraderie and bravado: I'm not sure whether it is constructive, de-constructive or neither for men to place themselves as protectors and aspire to such ideals as "be a man" and "man up", but in situations like this such phrases serve as good motivators to get people to do the right thing, so unless I find evidence of such phrasing being harmful, I think it's a useful tool to inspire decent behaviour.
krakensden 16y ago
> * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. As an aside, LWN is great and has lots of well written articles, technical and otherwise.
aliguori 16y ago
> * Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations. Actually, even something like this is still considered offensive. See http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment A sexualized presentation will most likely disproportionately offend women over men particularly in a male dominated audience.

idm 16y ago

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but there was a live IRC session running on the overhead, and each time a question was asked by a woman, IRC would be filled with lude and aggressively sexual remarks. It was totally uncomfortable! I think this situation qualifies as bona fide sexual harassment. Touching or groping someone in a sexual manner is assault (at least it can be in the US.) It's so far beyond mere harassment that it's not the point of the article... EDIT: for clarity...

callahad 16y ago
Are you perhaps thinking of Ian Bicking's "Topics of Interest" talk [0] from PyCon 2009? It definitely veered into the uncomfortable, but there was some reasonable handling of the situation during the talk, IIRC, and was definitely a catalyst in the PSF adopting a formal diversity statement [1] and trying to be encourage inclusivity in the community. [0]: http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/ http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/ [1]: http://www.python.org/community/diversity/ http://www.python.org/community/diversity/
- idm 16y ago
  Yeah, that's the talk I was thinking about. UPDATE - after watching it again, they handled it pretty well.
acangiano 16y ago
> Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. I wasn't implying otherwise. Sexual remarks like the ones you describe are certainly uncalled for and a form of sexual harassment. What I meant is that it's important to draw the line between "awkward flirting" and harassment/assault of a sexual nature, so that severe and proper corrective actions can be taken when actual episodes of harassment or assault happen, and so that they cannot be easily dismissed. (I wasn't going for the distinction between harassment and assault in my comment, and I used the word harassment as an all-inclusive term for any form of sexual, inappropriate behavior).
jacquesm 16y ago
The same even happened in the chat during the start-up school webcasts. Very disturbing.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

khafra 16y ago

An unwanted flirtation is not sexual harassment, but repeated advances after the target of the advances has said "no" are sexual harassment.

acangiano 16y ago
Absolutely, but it's important to understand that a guy hitting on you is not sexual harassment. When you have made it clear that you are not interested, the guy needs to leave you alone though, or it can easily become harassment.

aneth 16y ago

I've written a number of comments about articles about sexism in tech and elsewhere that have been duly down voted. I find many such articles to be self-absorbed prudish feminism that turn innocuous events into harassment. However this is the first article to focus largely on real harassment and I generally agree with your sentiment. I don't think conferences are a place to have an entirely dry professional existence, but women should feel comfortable that they can interact with men without persistent come-ons. As immature as it may be, men make sexual jokes with men that they don't mean - the "how much for a #%^¥" comment in this article may have been such a comment directed toward a women in an attempt to relate, or it may have been sexist harassment. It's hard to say which from the article. Either way it's immature and reflects badly on the speaker but in only one instance is it real harassment. I suggest women give these men, many of whom are unsure how to relate to women, the benefit of the doubt that they are joking or just naive, possible even give them some straightforward advice. If someone is persistent, rude, physically assaulting, or otherwise clearly violating you, I think it's your responsibility to report this as well as not to blame the behavior on the entire conference.

blasdel 16y ago

magamiako didn't delete his own comment — he was banned several months ago, all his contributions since then are [dead] on arrival

ibejoeb 16y ago

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

wtracy 16y ago
That doesn't make it acceptable.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Naturally, but we do need to keep the distinction.
ebiester 16y ago
It is creating an inhospitable environment. I know, it seems odd that people would be so sensitive to something that seems so minor, but think of it in terms of a group of bullies. There are very few actions that a bully takes that are out and out awful. Instead, it's the little things that accumulate. Those little things that, designed or not, let you know what others think your place is. It's rarely attractive men in speedos holding the laptops. The lunch isn't being held at a strip club where men are dancing. It's all these small things that add up to an intolerable environment. It's like little pricks of a needle. It's not that any individual one is "that bad", but it's the bigger picture when society looks at you as a voodoo doll.
stevenbedrick 16y ago
I disagree. That sort of slide (and its associated comment) is absolutely sexual harassment, in that it automatically sexualizes what is supposed to be a professional environment. Given the technology world's long and unpleasant track record of sexist behavior towards women (as well as towards... well, pretty much anybody who isn't, cisgendered, heterosexual, and male), I personally can think of very few ways that sexualizing a public technology presentation can do anything other than create (or contribute to) a hostile environment for a good chunk of the audience. Furthermore, that sort of slide sends a clear message to the audience about who the speaker thinks they're speaking to. In this case, it says that the speaker thinks that his audience is composed of heterosexual males[1], which <sarcasm>I'm sure feels just great to any women who might also be in the audience.</sarcasm> [1]: I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the author of those conference slides did not include them in an attempt to appeal to the audience's lesbian members. I am, of course, willing to be corrected on this point.

TomOfTTB 16y ago

I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women. That means not just respecting them but stepping up and dealing with a jerk who thinks he doesn’t have to. That’s part of being a man in our society (or at least it should be IMHO) I’m not saying women can’t do it too but I wouldn’t think less of a woman if they didn’t. I would think less of a man (and again I know how un-PC that sounds but it doesn’t make it less true)

salemh 16y ago
This post needs more up voting, re: the responsibility of those around the conferences (or any every-day situation) to step in (as men) to the aid of a women being harassed. Women, physically (at a 99% level), are weaker then men (this may spawn a large discussion), but at the simplistic level, deserve to feel safe within public and private places. I like to use an analogy when explaining the female mind to men who are not respectful of women's private space: imagine an 8 foot giant of a man whose only thoughts, leers, and actions speak to wanting to have sex with you (or rape you). Visualize that in your head, you may have a better appreciation for the "why's" of women and how they act in social circumstance.
kbatten 16y ago
I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.
- ZoFreX 16y ago
  I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as physically weaker, but intellectually equal or superior. If I'm making a decision on whether I'm "taking someone seriously", physical strength isn't going to factor into that in many situations. In the context of FOSS conferences, their physical stature is completely orthogonal to whether I give a damn. From here I only need make the assumption that those physically weaker than their peers may need assistance sometimes, and we're basically there. Of course, I would not assert that all women need assistance, or that some women need assistance all the time - I know some girls that play rugby and I'd wager they could beat 95% of HN readers in a showdown. However the fact remains that many people believe that stronger people have a duty to protect weaker people, that many women are weaker than many men, and (importantly) that women are being targeted because they are women. I for one am going to step in if I see any shenanigans, because I am a man. Note on male camaraderie and bravado: I'm not sure whether it is constructive, de-constructive or neither for men to place themselves as protectors and aspire to such ideals as "be a man" and "man up", but in situations like this such phrases serve as good motivators to get people to do the right thing, so unless I find evidence of such phrasing being harmful, I think it's a useful tool to inspire decent behaviour.

krakensden 16y ago

> * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. As an aside, LWN is great and has lots of well written articles, technical and otherwise.

aliguori 16y ago

> * Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations. Actually, even something like this is still considered offensive. See http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment A sexualized presentation will most likely disproportionately offend women over men particularly in a male dominated audience.