6 ms·

Running an IRC Network in 2019: Challenges and Opportunities

76 points by trobotham 7y ago

iforgotpassword 7y ago
> Unfortunately, no workable solution for mobile connections has been found yet. I've come to the conclusion that trying to get the irc protocol to handle this is a dead end. A better solution would be to make the server handle multiple protocols. I'm using quassel for over a year now, and it makes irc usable from mobile. It does so by being split into a core and a GUI, so basically like a bouncer, but the protocol between them is designed from scratch, to handle connection drops and even connecting with multiple quassel clients to a single core while syncing up everything properly. Now the big question would be if it were feasible to support the quassel protocol directly on the irc server, in parallel to irc. This way the hardcore irc fans can keep using it the way they always did, while at the same time making it easy for the kids these days to get started, by not having to set up a quassel core somewhere first. Just grab the app and go.
- callahad 7y ago
  I've been extremely happy with The Lounge (https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/) as a modern, web-based IRC client. It's successfully replaced a decade of ZNC and WeeChat acting as bouncers for irssi, Textual, and X-Chat. - It's a PWA, so I can add it to my homescreen on Android just like any other native app (and I find the UX better than most native Android IRC clients). - It supports Web Push notifications, so I find out when I've been mentioned, even without the client running locally. - It remembers and restores state across restarts. ...and it turns out that's basically all I wanted. I wonder if the network hosting its own instance of such a capable client would be enough for new users to get going?
  - lol768 7y ago
    >...and it turns out that's basically all I wanted. I wonder if the network hosting its own instance of such a capable client would be enough for new users to get going? This is what we do on EsperNet (https://webchat.esper.net/ https://webchat.esper.net/), for what it's worth - using a forked version of The Lounge with some minor changes. It works reasonably well, but we do have to run it in public mode which limits some of the advantages (e.g. the bouncer-like behaviour). With that said, it's a well made application and is a big improvement upon CGI:IRC and Iris. xPaw and astorije are great, too.
- croon 7y ago
  I've been running irssi in a screen for 15 years or so, and ircII before that. I won't say it's great UX on a phone through something like JuiceSSH or Termius, but I've been accepting it as I always want/need access to my terminal on the go regardless. I might give quassel a try though, thanks!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lol768 7y ago
  I personally use weechat and weechat-android (https://github.com/ubergeek42/weechat-android https://github.com/ubergeek42/weechat-android) and it's the best Android client I've tried. It does require some technical set-up, though. You can plug Glowing Bear into it too, if you want a web interface.
HoppyHaus 7y ago
Largest challenge nowadays is just getting someone to use it. I've run a server for the past few years, and I plan to continue for the foreseeable future. And of all the things that lead to an issue, its just getting someone to not immediately throw their hands in the air and flop around. It's not hard, and I'm fully willing to help those people, yet for some reason, it never sticks. I don't even know if a lot of people these days can grasp/enjoy the concept. I don't know of any popular social media that just throws you into a community of people that don't know, except for Discord, which still has a way different feel. It's strange, and there isn't much I would say I could do personally. But I'll keep my server going as long as I physically can, out of stubbornness if not anything else.
- lifthrasiir 7y ago
  I've also run one, and nowadays it is more like a bridge between Slack and Discord channels (there is even a dedicated API for such use cases, much like "bot" accounts in those proprietary services). Given that those services generally refuse to cooperate with each other, this might be an interesting opportunity for IRC.
- skullborg 7y ago
  I still hang out on Freenode, irc still keeps some us together
  - meruru 7y ago
    I go to Freenode all the time to ask questions. I answer some sometimes, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to pay forward all the help I've received there.
huxflux 7y ago
Fellow IRC:ers, I salute you guys!
diebeforei485 7y ago
If the problem is that Slack/Discord are proprietary, isn't the solution to build an FLOSS alternative to Slack/Discord that anyone can run a server for? Do such projects exist? While I loved using IRC 10-15 years ago, the user experience is simply terrible by our standards today (and adding emoji reactions isn't going to solve that imo).
- meruru 7y ago
  https://riot.im https://riot.im
  - dngray 7y ago
    > https://riot.im https://riot.im aka Matrix, (Riot is the main client) is a good one because it is decentralized and federated. This means there can be many servers and they can all be linked up. Additionally IRC can be be bridged among other things • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) • https://matrix.org/docs/guides/types-of-bridging.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/types-of-bridging.html • https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridges https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridges • https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bridged-IRC-networks https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bri...
- usr1106 7y ago
  zulip is open source (despite being developed by a company). They don't discourage you to run your own server, it's fully documented (and we do it in our company) It's not intended to be a Slack clone, but better by introducing email-like discussion topics. I like it, but seems that some less geeky people are more difficult to educate how to use it reasonably.
- m_eiman 7y ago
  There’s also Mattermost.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Mumble
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
LukeB42 7y ago
Containerising the IRCD would probably broaden the pool of people willing to host the network, due to not needing root on their boxes anymore. Shameless plug for anyone who just wants their own IRCD: https://github.com/LukeB42/Psyrcd https://github.com/LukeB42/Psyrcd
k_sze 7y ago
For me, a major pain point about IRC is that I, as a user, need to use a bouncer in order to not miss messages. And even then, you still risk missing some messages if the bouncer needs to disconnect from the IRC server (e.g. due to updates to the bouncer software or to the hosting OS).
- laumars 7y ago
  I personally see that as a feature because you can then specify what triggers you want recorded. eg just your nick? What about other phrases like an unusual hobby you might have? etc
  - drchickensalad 7y ago
    Slack and other services have this without the bouncer
    - laumars 7y ago
      Slack doesn't support triggers in nearly as sophisticated way as IRC bounces can (believe me, I've tried). I wasn't intended to compare IRC to Slack but since you've started us down this rabbit hole: I'd take IRC over Slack any day. Sure Slack is more "modern" and it can - in theory - do anything IRC can do. However IRC is more easily extendible and in a more versatile way. To be honest there's nothing Slack does that you couldn't also do in IRC - albeit some features might require a more modern IRC client than the terminal ones us geeks often harp on about (disclaimer: I've written tools for both IRC and Slack). The problem with IRC faces isn't a technological one - it's just a mixture of NIH (not invented here) syndrome and capitalists wanting to make money from reinventing public domain tools as proprietary solutions with expensive subscriptions. Not that I have a problem with people wanting to make money - quite the opposite in fact - but I do take issue with people who say "this can't be done in X which is why Y exists" when the real reason is financially motivated rather than any technological shortcoming.
Annatar 7y ago
"Until about a year ago, we instead used a self-hosted PowerDNS on the back-end. PowerDNS was backed by a MySQL (later MariaDB) database. MySQL/MariaDB had been chosen for its support for streaming replication." This is completely unnecessary (to say nothing of how MySQL silently corrupts data): PowerDNS can be configured for regular AXFR's between servers and that works exactly as one would expect, irrespective of what the back-end storage engine is. The most effective, simplest, robust and therefore cheapest way to run PowerDNS is with the SQLite back-end as the storage engine and AXFR's between master and the slaves configured (PowerDNS BV run it with SQLite themselves); this inter-database replication is nonsense, just asking for trouble due to fragility and complexity. When I see such crazy unnecessarily complex solutions, I often wonder: what the hell went through those people's minds? Aren't they able to reason it out logically? What the hell were they thinking and why the hell were they thinking it??? This solution is so irrational, that it has to be ignorance.
- trobotham 7y ago
  We actually chose PowerDNS with MySQL for a chatops style bot which automatically yanks servers in and out of the pool as needed (on splits, when limits are hit, etc), this was for the purpose of load balancing. We then decided to go with Route53 as it is less maintenance and more accurate geo-wise.
  - Annatar 7y ago
    And why wouldn't normal AXFR's between servers work in this scenario?
    - trobotham 7y ago
      The bot would directly update the MySQL database this was also chosen due to the complexity of geodns.
      - Annatar 7y ago
        This answer makes no sense. Why does an IRC bot have to update the database? What does geolocation have to do with choosing database replication over AXFR? With every answer you raise more questions than you answer.
scorchin 7y ago
As a client I've been happily using https://www.irccloud.com/ https://www.irccloud.com/ for the last few years. Does what I need: decent mobile and web client.
lol768 7y ago
Interesting to see how this compares to how we run things for EsperNet. - We don't use much cloud technology at present. That means we run our own DNS nameservers (using PowerDNS and a single MySQL node - AXFR and slave nameservers give us redundancy [1]). We implement Let's Encrypt renewals on top of this using the DNS challenge and have some custom software to securely push certificates to the IRC servers. This keeps costs down. - We've replaced our old Iris webchat with The Lounge in public mode, which is fully containerised. - We have some additional infrastructure for staff: our LDAP directory, an IdP which runs on top and provides SAML & OIDC auth, Git for code and some internal web services for pooling/depooling servers and monitoring. - Some of the staff have written services and IRCd modules to help control spam and support connection limit exemptions (for e.g. bouncers). [1] This allowed us to continue operating with no user-visible impact when we had a hardware failure on the primary DNS box.

76 points by trobotham 7y ago

> Unfortunately, no workable solution for mobile connections has been found yet. I've come to the conclusion that trying to get the irc protocol to handle this is a dead end. A better solution would be to make the server handle multiple protocols. I'm using quassel for over a year now, and it makes irc usable from mobile. It does so by being split into a core and a GUI, so basically like a bouncer, but the protocol between them is designed from scratch, to handle connection drops and even connecting with multiple quassel clients to a single core while syncing up everything properly. Now the big question would be if it were feasible to support the quassel protocol directly on the irc server, in parallel to irc. This way the hardcore irc fans can keep using it the way they always did, while at the same time making it easy for the kids these days to get started, by not having to set up a quassel core somewhere first. Just grab the app and go.

callahad 7y ago
I've been extremely happy with The Lounge (https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/) as a modern, web-based IRC client. It's successfully replaced a decade of ZNC and WeeChat acting as bouncers for irssi, Textual, and X-Chat. - It's a PWA, so I can add it to my homescreen on Android just like any other native app (and I find the UX better than most native Android IRC clients). - It supports Web Push notifications, so I find out when I've been mentioned, even without the client running locally. - It remembers and restores state across restarts. ...and it turns out that's basically all I wanted. I wonder if the network hosting its own instance of such a capable client would be enough for new users to get going?
- lol768 7y ago
  >...and it turns out that's basically all I wanted. I wonder if the network hosting its own instance of such a capable client would be enough for new users to get going? This is what we do on EsperNet (https://webchat.esper.net/ https://webchat.esper.net/), for what it's worth - using a forked version of The Lounge with some minor changes. It works reasonably well, but we do have to run it in public mode which limits some of the advantages (e.g. the bouncer-like behaviour). With that said, it's a well made application and is a big improvement upon CGI:IRC and Iris. xPaw and astorije are great, too.
croon 7y ago
I've been running irssi in a screen for 15 years or so, and ircII before that. I won't say it's great UX on a phone through something like JuiceSSH or Termius, but I've been accepting it as I always want/need access to my terminal on the go regardless. I might give quassel a try though, thanks!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lol768 7y ago
I personally use weechat and weechat-android (https://github.com/ubergeek42/weechat-android https://github.com/ubergeek42/weechat-android) and it's the best Android client I've tried. It does require some technical set-up, though. You can plug Glowing Bear into it too, if you want a web interface.

HoppyHaus 7y ago

Largest challenge nowadays is just getting someone to use it. I've run a server for the past few years, and I plan to continue for the foreseeable future. And of all the things that lead to an issue, its just getting someone to not immediately throw their hands in the air and flop around. It's not hard, and I'm fully willing to help those people, yet for some reason, it never sticks. I don't even know if a lot of people these days can grasp/enjoy the concept. I don't know of any popular social media that just throws you into a community of people that don't know, except for Discord, which still has a way different feel. It's strange, and there isn't much I would say I could do personally. But I'll keep my server going as long as I physically can, out of stubbornness if not anything else.

lifthrasiir 7y ago
I've also run one, and nowadays it is more like a bridge between Slack and Discord channels (there is even a dedicated API for such use cases, much like "bot" accounts in those proprietary services). Given that those services generally refuse to cooperate with each other, this might be an interesting opportunity for IRC.
skullborg 7y ago
I still hang out on Freenode, irc still keeps some us together
- meruru 7y ago
  I go to Freenode all the time to ask questions. I answer some sometimes, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to pay forward all the help I've received there.

huxflux 7y ago

Fellow IRC:ers, I salute you guys!

diebeforei485 7y ago

If the problem is that Slack/Discord are proprietary, isn't the solution to build an FLOSS alternative to Slack/Discord that anyone can run a server for? Do such projects exist? While I loved using IRC 10-15 years ago, the user experience is simply terrible by our standards today (and adding emoji reactions isn't going to solve that imo).

meruru 7y ago
https://riot.im https://riot.im
- dngray 7y ago
  > https://riot.im https://riot.im aka Matrix, (Riot is the main client) is a good one because it is decentralized and federated. This means there can be many servers and they can all be linked up. Additionally IRC can be be bridged among other things • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) • https://matrix.org/docs/guides/types-of-bridging.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/types-of-bridging.html • https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridges https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridges • https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bridged-IRC-networks https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bri...
usr1106 7y ago
zulip is open source (despite being developed by a company). They don't discourage you to run your own server, it's fully documented (and we do it in our company) It's not intended to be a Slack clone, but better by introducing email-like discussion topics. I like it, but seems that some less geeky people are more difficult to educate how to use it reasonably.
m_eiman 7y ago
There’s also Mattermost.
ShorsHammer 7y ago
Mumble

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

LukeB42 7y ago

Containerising the IRCD would probably broaden the pool of people willing to host the network, due to not needing root on their boxes anymore. Shameless plug for anyone who just wants their own IRCD: https://github.com/LukeB42/Psyrcd https://github.com/LukeB42/Psyrcd

k_sze 7y ago

For me, a major pain point about IRC is that I, as a user, need to use a bouncer in order to not miss messages. And even then, you still risk missing some messages if the bouncer needs to disconnect from the IRC server (e.g. due to updates to the bouncer software or to the hosting OS).

laumars 7y ago
I personally see that as a feature because you can then specify what triggers you want recorded. eg just your nick? What about other phrases like an unusual hobby you might have? etc
- drchickensalad 7y ago
  Slack and other services have this without the bouncer
  - laumars 7y ago
    Slack doesn't support triggers in nearly as sophisticated way as IRC bounces can (believe me, I've tried). I wasn't intended to compare IRC to Slack but since you've started us down this rabbit hole: I'd take IRC over Slack any day. Sure Slack is more "modern" and it can - in theory - do anything IRC can do. However IRC is more easily extendible and in a more versatile way. To be honest there's nothing Slack does that you couldn't also do in IRC - albeit some features might require a more modern IRC client than the terminal ones us geeks often harp on about (disclaimer: I've written tools for both IRC and Slack). The problem with IRC faces isn't a technological one - it's just a mixture of NIH (not invented here) syndrome and capitalists wanting to make money from reinventing public domain tools as proprietary solutions with expensive subscriptions. Not that I have a problem with people wanting to make money - quite the opposite in fact - but I do take issue with people who say "this can't be done in X which is why Y exists" when the real reason is financially motivated rather than any technological shortcoming.

Annatar 7y ago

"Until about a year ago, we instead used a self-hosted PowerDNS on the back-end. PowerDNS was backed by a MySQL (later MariaDB) database. MySQL/MariaDB had been chosen for its support for streaming replication." This is completely unnecessary (to say nothing of how MySQL silently corrupts data): PowerDNS can be configured for regular AXFR's between servers and that works exactly as one would expect, irrespective of what the back-end storage engine is. The most effective, simplest, robust and therefore cheapest way to run PowerDNS is with the SQLite back-end as the storage engine and AXFR's between master and the slaves configured (PowerDNS BV run it with SQLite themselves); this inter-database replication is nonsense, just asking for trouble due to fragility and complexity. When I see such crazy unnecessarily complex solutions, I often wonder: what the hell went through those people's minds? Aren't they able to reason it out logically? What the hell were they thinking and why the hell were they thinking it??? This solution is so irrational, that it has to be ignorance.

trobotham 7y ago
We actually chose PowerDNS with MySQL for a chatops style bot which automatically yanks servers in and out of the pool as needed (on splits, when limits are hit, etc), this was for the purpose of load balancing. We then decided to go with Route53 as it is less maintenance and more accurate geo-wise.
- Annatar 7y ago
  And why wouldn't normal AXFR's between servers work in this scenario?
  - trobotham 7y ago
    The bot would directly update the MySQL database this was also chosen due to the complexity of geodns.
    - Annatar 7y ago
      This answer makes no sense. Why does an IRC bot have to update the database? What does geolocation have to do with choosing database replication over AXFR? With every answer you raise more questions than you answer.

scorchin 7y ago

As a client I've been happily using https://www.irccloud.com/ https://www.irccloud.com/ for the last few years. Does what I need: decent mobile and web client.

lol768 7y ago

Interesting to see how this compares to how we run things for EsperNet. - We don't use much cloud technology at present. That means we run our own DNS nameservers (using PowerDNS and a single MySQL node - AXFR and slave nameservers give us redundancy [1]). We implement Let's Encrypt renewals on top of this using the DNS challenge and have some custom software to securely push certificates to the IRC servers. This keeps costs down. - We've replaced our old Iris webchat with The Lounge in public mode, which is fully containerised. - We have some additional infrastructure for staff: our LDAP directory, an IdP which runs on top and provides SAML & OIDC auth, Git for code and some internal web services for pooling/depooling servers and monitoring. - Some of the staff have written services and IRCd modules to help control spam and support connection limit exemptions (for e.g. bouncers). [1] This allowed us to continue operating with no user-visible impact when we had a hardware failure on the primary DNS box.