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Have you ever exchanged a look with a stranger and their expression was such that you immediately got a deep impression of their inner life, of their humanity,

Have you ever exchanged a look with a stranger and their expression was such that you immediately got a deep impression of their inner life, of their humanity, and felt a connection? That happened to me with a raven, while we were both enjoying a stunning view of a sunset at Petrified Forest National Park. It was a large, old, rumpled, wise seeming creature. Surely that environment primed me for the experience. The mostly likely explanation is that I had a kind of moral hallucination. But it's changed the way I've seen ravens since. I attribute self awareness to them. When they caw what I hear is laughing ... at a ground bound inferior like me. Reading _Mind_of_the_Raven_ only reinforced this feeling. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254704.Mind_of_the_Raven https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254704.Mind_of_the_Raven

ZhuanXia 8y ago
Scott Alexander has a good post on bird intelligence here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/25/neurons-and-intelligence-a-birdbrained-perspective/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/25/neurons-and-intelligen... Though they have much smaller brains, there is evidence to suggest that their brains are 10x more computationally dense.
- djmips 8y ago
  Birds are on a better process.
  - anoncake 8y ago
    Maybe cooling is also a factor, so we are constrained by our brain's surface area.
- hopler 8y ago
  To some extent brain "power" goes with surface area, right? Granted the surface is highly folded in 3 dimensions. But I think larger brains have a lot more "non thinking" matter to support the complexity of maintaining a larger neural network. On the other hand, effective thinking-power may be superlinear in neuron count. Or perhaps sublinear.
- dcassett 8y ago
  Recently finished an interesting survey of bird intelligence (speech, navigation, social order, etc.): https://www.jenniferackermanauthor.com/genius-ofbirds https://www.jenniferackermanauthor.com/genius-ofbirds
- taneq 8y ago
  When talking about brain power like this, I don't often see people mention the costs of simply driving a more complicated body. Birds are physically simpler than humans (no hands, fairly simple feet/legs) so maybe they just spend less overhead on motor skills and associated control?
username223 8y ago
For me, it was watching them play for hours outside the office. Sometimes a pair would fly together for awhile, then one would dive at the other, who would flip over at the last instant. There was no reason for them to do this; they just had enough free time to screw around.
- rags2riches 8y ago
  That's a sure sign you are watching ravens, not crows. Ravens can play together in the air in ways crows never do.
  - Animats 8y ago
    Ravens are apparently one of the smartest animals.[1] [1] https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/ravens-problem-solving-smart-birds/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/ravens-problem-s...
    - acqq 8y ago
      Also crows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc
      - crehn 8y ago
        Seems like the crow is "just" solving the problems independently (with which it has previous experience), rather than thinking multiple steps ahead.
    - masonic 8y ago
      Corvids in general. The New Caledonia Crow is getting a lot of study for its puzzle-solving abilities.
- ryanianian 8y ago
  This video of a crow repeatedly "skiing" down a roof changed my view of how animals play - I thought it was all "practice-fighting" but this crow seems to be playing "just for the fun of it". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo
credit_guy 8y ago
I wonder if the story of Elijah, who, according to the Bible received food from some ravens, could have some seed of truth? Kings 17:2-6 “2 Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah: 3 “Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have directed the ravens to supply you with food there.” 5 So he did what the Lord had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.”

ZhuanXia 8y ago

Scott Alexander has a good post on bird intelligence here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/25/neurons-and-intelligence-a-birdbrained-perspective/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/25/neurons-and-intelligen... Though they have much smaller brains, there is evidence to suggest that their brains are 10x more computationally dense.

djmips 8y ago
Birds are on a better process.
- anoncake 8y ago
  Maybe cooling is also a factor, so we are constrained by our brain's surface area.
hopler 8y ago
To some extent brain "power" goes with surface area, right? Granted the surface is highly folded in 3 dimensions. But I think larger brains have a lot more "non thinking" matter to support the complexity of maintaining a larger neural network. On the other hand, effective thinking-power may be superlinear in neuron count. Or perhaps sublinear.
dcassett 8y ago
Recently finished an interesting survey of bird intelligence (speech, navigation, social order, etc.): https://www.jenniferackermanauthor.com/genius-ofbirds https://www.jenniferackermanauthor.com/genius-ofbirds
taneq 8y ago
When talking about brain power like this, I don't often see people mention the costs of simply driving a more complicated body. Birds are physically simpler than humans (no hands, fairly simple feet/legs) so maybe they just spend less overhead on motor skills and associated control?

username223 8y ago

For me, it was watching them play for hours outside the office. Sometimes a pair would fly together for awhile, then one would dive at the other, who would flip over at the last instant. There was no reason for them to do this; they just had enough free time to screw around.

rags2riches 8y ago
That's a sure sign you are watching ravens, not crows. Ravens can play together in the air in ways crows never do.
- Animats 8y ago
  Ravens are apparently one of the smartest animals.[1] [1] https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/ravens-problem-solving-smart-birds/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/ravens-problem-s...
  - acqq 8y ago
    Also crows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc
    - crehn 8y ago
      Seems like the crow is "just" solving the problems independently (with which it has previous experience), rather than thinking multiple steps ahead.
  - masonic 8y ago
    Corvids in general. The New Caledonia Crow is getting a lot of study for its puzzle-solving abilities.
ryanianian 8y ago
This video of a crow repeatedly "skiing" down a roof changed my view of how animals play - I thought it was all "practice-fighting" but this crow seems to be playing "just for the fun of it". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo

credit_guy 8y ago

I wonder if the story of Elijah, who, according to the Bible received food from some ravens, could have some seed of truth? Kings 17:2-6 “2 Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah: 3 “Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have directed the ravens to supply you with food there.” 5 So he did what the Lord had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.”