7 ms·

What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post](http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://blog.nerdch

by rb2k_ 16y ago

What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post](http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other boys at the party. Way to be professional...

robg 16y ago
Flirting isn't professional when it's at an after hours party? How else should one signal that they're available and interested?
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  Signalling such things is, in fact, not professional. Of course, neither are most after-hours parties...
  - robg 16y ago
    By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. If women can't flirt in those environs, we're doomed as a species. Unless you want to go trolling at dance clubs?
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      > By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. Definitely. Were you under the impression that I was saying otherwise?
- jedbrown 16y ago
  She's married, I don't think her flirting was intended as a sign of availability.
  - maco 16y ago
    Only married in the "divorce proceedings take a while" sense.
    - kragen 16y ago
      To be clear, Mackenzie, are you saying that you know Noirin personally, and that it's public knowledge that she's in the process of getting a divorce, and [edited] also that she really is looking for a new partner?
      - jules 16y ago
        She posted it on her blog.
        kragen 16y ago
        I am happy to see that Mackenzie's comment has been voted up from -1 to 3 now.
sili 16y ago
On the other side, the article mentions the double bind women are in: they are generally treated as "non-technical" and so need to use tricks to get others to pay attention to what they are saying, yet these trick that end up being interpreted as flirting and sexual advances.
- robg 16y ago
  My concern here is lumping flirting in with sexual advances. A big part of the problem is men see the first and assume the second, or worse, promiscuity. That's the bad path.
achompas 16y ago
Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites this as one example. There are many others, like when the author organized a group outing to a pub, only to have one of the invited workshop attendees grab my ass while I was having a completely normal conversation. (EDIT) sp332 points out that GP is discussing the environment at these events, but we're operating in shades of gray here. The author talks about how the attitude towards women at these events is "institutionalized sexism." That is, people hired strippers etc. for years, and that attitude still exists at conferences/events. Noira could've been out-of-bounds by sitting in someone's lap, but we don't have any information on whether she knows the person, has a relationship with them, etc. Still, GP's comment implies that Noira's behavior fosters the "sexualized environment" the author is complaining about. My point is that there's a big leap from Noira's flirting to women being groped. (/edit)
- sp332 16y ago
  Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...
  - achompas 16y ago
    Upvote for catching this, and I'm editing my post to be clearer, but: there's a world of difference between harmless flirting and attending a conference where the company hires strippers.
    - robg 16y ago
      And the strippers aren't even at the party for sex.
petercooper 16y ago
It was at a breakout party in a hotel room - hardly the main stage of the conference. Even in a sexually charged environment where people are strongly flirting with each other, a reasonable person will know the line between flirting (and back off if the signals are poor) and assaulting someone. When a woman rejects your potentially reasonable advance, shoving your hand down her pants isn't step 2.
ErrantX 16y ago
Yes... and there was not necessarily anything wrong with making a pass at her (i.e. taking her aside and going for a kiss etc, although it's hardly well executed it is harmless and she clearly views it that way) But when rebuffed you don't then feel her up. There is a line to be crossed; she brought the passes on herself to be sure, but not the assault. (EDIT: the replies to this make it clear my point got a bit twisted. I was rebuffing the parent to this' point about her being flirty at the party; by suggesting that flirtyness is not wrong and neither is [in many cases] making passes at flirty people. But that assaulting them after a clear rebuff is always wrong. In this case it is clear he was entirely in the wrong. Using the word "necessarily" was meant to convey that, obviously that didn't work ;))
- kolektiv 16y ago
  Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.
  - dwmw2 16y ago
    Life would be so much easier if that were always true. But sometimes, the first real move in a relationship is a kiss, which comes fairly much out of the blue. Context is everything.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.
    - robg 16y ago
      Depends on what you mean by a "pass". Asking a woman if you can kiss her may feel hard, but looking back on my single teenage years, that's a whole lot easier than "going for a kiss".
kolektiv 16y ago
But the point here is surely "flirting with other boys", not the one who then assaulted her. Can you flirt? Sure. Can you wear what you like, safe in the knowledge that people still have no right to assault you? Yes, you should be able to. I'm a guy, but when I go out I try and look nice. Sometimes I'll flirt with people. That's fine. If I flirt with someone and it's not reciprocated, I stop. Immediately. You're basically just rephrasing the "she was asking for it"argument there. And it's crap. So don't.
JoachimSchipper 16y ago
Unprofessional women still shouldn't be groped. And it's a (rather informal) after-hours even after a (rather informal) conference...

by rb2k_ 16y ago

robg 16y ago

Flirting isn't professional when it's at an after hours party? How else should one signal that they're available and interested?

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
Signalling such things is, in fact, not professional. Of course, neither are most after-hours parties...
- robg 16y ago
  By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. If women can't flirt in those environs, we're doomed as a species. Unless you want to go trolling at dance clubs?
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    > By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. Definitely. Were you under the impression that I was saying otherwise?
jedbrown 16y ago
She's married, I don't think her flirting was intended as a sign of availability.
- maco 16y ago
  Only married in the "divorce proceedings take a while" sense.
  - kragen 16y ago
    To be clear, Mackenzie, are you saying that you know Noirin personally, and that it's public knowledge that she's in the process of getting a divorce, and [edited] also that she really is looking for a new partner?
    - jules 16y ago
      She posted it on her blog.
      - kragen 16y ago
        I am happy to see that Mackenzie's comment has been voted up from -1 to 3 now.

sili 16y ago

On the other side, the article mentions the double bind women are in: they are generally treated as "non-technical" and so need to use tricks to get others to pay attention to what they are saying, yet these trick that end up being interpreted as flirting and sexual advances.

robg 16y ago
My concern here is lumping flirting in with sexual advances. A big part of the problem is men see the first and assume the second, or worse, promiscuity. That's the bad path.

achompas 16y ago

Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites this as one example. There are many others, like when the author organized a group outing to a pub, only to have one of the invited workshop attendees grab my ass while I was having a completely normal conversation. (EDIT) sp332 points out that GP is discussing the environment at these events, but we're operating in shades of gray here. The author talks about how the attitude towards women at these events is "institutionalized sexism." That is, people hired strippers etc. for years, and that attitude still exists at conferences/events. Noira could've been out-of-bounds by sitting in someone's lap, but we don't have any information on whether she knows the person, has a relationship with them, etc. Still, GP's comment implies that Noira's behavior fosters the "sexualized environment" the author is complaining about. My point is that there's a big leap from Noira's flirting to women being groped. (/edit)

sp332 16y ago
Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...
- achompas 16y ago
  Upvote for catching this, and I'm editing my post to be clearer, but: there's a world of difference between harmless flirting and attending a conference where the company hires strippers.
  - robg 16y ago
    And the strippers aren't even at the party for sex.

petercooper 16y ago

It was at a breakout party in a hotel room - hardly the main stage of the conference. Even in a sexually charged environment where people are strongly flirting with each other, a reasonable person will know the line between flirting (and back off if the signals are poor) and assaulting someone. When a woman rejects your potentially reasonable advance, shoving your hand down her pants isn't step 2.

ErrantX 16y ago

Yes... and there was not necessarily anything wrong with making a pass at her (i.e. taking her aside and going for a kiss etc, although it's hardly well executed it is harmless and she clearly views it that way) But when rebuffed you don't then feel her up. There is a line to be crossed; she brought the passes on herself to be sure, but not the assault. (EDIT: the replies to this make it clear my point got a bit twisted. I was rebuffing the parent to this' point about her being flirty at the party; by suggesting that flirtyness is not wrong and neither is [in many cases] making passes at flirty people. But that assaulting them after a clear rebuff is always wrong. In this case it is clear he was entirely in the wrong. Using the word "necessarily" was meant to convey that, obviously that didn't work ;))

kolektiv 16y ago
Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.
- dwmw2 16y ago
  Life would be so much easier if that were always true. But sometimes, the first real move in a relationship is a kiss, which comes fairly much out of the blue. Context is everything.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.
  - robg 16y ago
    Depends on what you mean by a "pass". Asking a woman if you can kiss her may feel hard, but looking back on my single teenage years, that's a whole lot easier than "going for a kiss".

kolektiv 16y ago

But the point here is surely "flirting with other boys", not the one who then assaulted her. Can you flirt? Sure. Can you wear what you like, safe in the knowledge that people still have no right to assault you? Yes, you should be able to. I'm a guy, but when I go out I try and look nice. Sometimes I'll flirt with people. That's fine. If I flirt with someone and it's not reciprocated, I stop. Immediately. You're basically just rephrasing the "she was asking for it"argument there. And it's crap. So don't.

JoachimSchipper 16y ago

Unprofessional women still shouldn't be groped. And it's a (rather informal) after-hours even after a (rather informal) conference...