7 ms·

Yay now I can go in to debt and have it follow me I’m around the entire world!

by willio58 8y ago

nine_k 8y ago
That is, you cannot borrow someone else's money and try to run with them to a different country? Seems only logical.
- delfinom 8y ago
  On the other hand, it could people to identity theft you and open cards in your name abroad and good luck dealing with that shit show.
  - fwn 8y ago
    It is true that identity theft is a bad thing. It's unconnected to a different bad thing, which is people not paying what they owe. ...people (not you, I just think it's fitting) often think that being lax on credit is helping the poor or making the world a better place by some kind of self-enforced redistribution. It is, however, far better to have strong contractual and property institutions while caring for those in need with well established legal and economic structures. (This could be a full welfare state, but could also be any other set of policies targeting the same problem.) I have, for example, strong feelings about the idea that there are some loans you can't default on. But if that turns out to be a societal problem it needs to be solved there, not through a lack of enforcement for the few who leave the country.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Here's the problem though: the money is there to push for strong contractual and property institutions, but there isn't much for adding the "caring for those in need" part. They should go in lockstep, but they don't. I agree with you wrt. how things should be, but I do empathize with people who use lax enforcement as a way to escape inhumane regulatory conditions.
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      > ...people (not you, I just think it's fitting) often think that being lax on credit is helping the poor or making the world a better place by some kind of self-enforced redistribution. Is this risk not the reason interest is charged? If you want perfect enforcement of all loans, interest must go to 0, otherwise the interest is pure profit.
- jlokier 8y ago
  You can have ruined credit without owing any money, and it takes a very long time for it to go away. See also: "I was declared deceased three times and it destroyed my credit" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322 https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/bctflo/i_have_been_declared_deceased_for_15_months_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/bctflo/i_h... You can also have ruined credit through no actions of your own, without knowing that you do, until that day you try to rent an apartment or a phone contract or whatever, and everywhere turns you down and you don't know why. You can also have ruined credit, oddly, while having a large amount of savings at the same time. I don't know about other countries, but in the UK, the credit reference agencies don't keep track of bank deposits (even though they do keep track of bank overdrafts), so you can have say £100,000 in the bank, while being unable to get a £1000 limit credit card or £1000 loan (which you might choose if you wanted to keep the £100k in a tax-efficient account), not even at the same bank. It's surprisingly easy to have a ruined credit rating through no fault of your own, without knowing, if you aren't obsessive about checking. For example: When the credit reference agencies (CRAs) hold incorrect information about you. Or accounts that don't exist and which have entirely fictional transactions on them, which of course are never paid because they aren't real and start flagging as "overdue", because some utility leaves accounts that are closed open in the CRA files for years later, and then add bogus transactions years later, which magically disappear when you ask the company if you owe them anything (I'm looking at you BT). In the UK, if your CRA record address doesn't match a local government address for you, there's quite a severe penalty to the credit score. Most people don't know that, but CRA data often has errors like that, which can be difficult to correct (I'm looking at you Equifax "it will take us 8 weeks to respond to your complaint, and please send us a copy of your passport"). Eventually you may find this out and call each of them individually to make a correction. And then find, each time you correct it, it periodically gets replaced with incorrect data automatically, because some system has an incorrect address database and uses it to automatically "improve" data back to the erroneous version (I'm looking at you Experian).
- black-tea 8y ago
  By "someone else's" you surely mean "the bank's money". I don't think individuals are going to benefit from this, just a few large players around the world.
  - Macross8299 8y ago
    The money that banks loan out is not entirely their money.
    - black-tea 8y ago
      Banks are not like a giant piggy bank with your savings in it. They create money when they create loans. They're not protecting "your money" with things like this, they are protecting their profits.
    - cam_l 8y ago
      Or even money at all.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      A large percentage of it is entirely their money. And in fact, not even actual money somebody at the bank owns, just numbers on their ledger (that they still make interest from borrowers off). In fact, there's most of the money the banks loan is not "somebody else's" at all, it's "loan money". https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/27-4-how-banks-create-money/ https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/27-4-how...
      - ddingus 8y ago
        Money created at the time of the loan. There is (in simple terms) as much money as people can reasonably borrow.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    And? Is a bank not worthy of the same rights as everyone else?
- mythealias 8y ago
  I would rather have police follow through on this rather than private businesses.
  - darawk 8y ago
    You want police to enforce debt collection?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - hedora 8y ago
      If the US hadn’t systematically defunded and outsourced the court system, lenders could take defaulting debtors to (small claims) court, and they could check court records before lending money. That would completely eliminate the debt collection industry, secondary debt markets, credit reporting agencies, and so on. But, raising taxes to pay for it is “too expensive”, so we pay orders of magnitude more in credit card processing fees, credit report monitoring, etc.
      - darawk 8y ago
        Huh? It is your contention that replacing our current system with...the court system would be less expensive?
      - jbottoms 8y ago
        I agree the courts have issues. Courts have given me (Pro se) faslse information and refused to answer procedural questions. In what sense are you referring to outsourcing? Could you explain you outsourcing view
- baybal2 8y ago
  > That is, you cannot borrow someone else's money and try to run with them to a different country? Seems only logical. And you can not complain about any random company nuking your credit rating to zero after failed automatic payment. Seems only logical. Had a friend who ran into that after Bell Canada billed his closed account. I was like "and what so?," but the guy was almost moved to tears. Before that, I never gave regard to people telling that "you should be very cautious closing a bank account"
- coldtea 8y ago
  Those borrowing are much more than those that lent money. And the latter by definition have more money to burn. So not sure if what you say is the more social damaging scenario or the inverse... Just pointing that across countries and cultures, human civilization has had a constant, throughout millennia, disfavor, of those lenting money, and of interest in particular.
- londons_explore 8y ago
  I wonder what would happen if at the airport they wouldn't let you fly unless you could prove that all your assets more than cover all your debts in the country you're flying from?
  - prolikewhoa 8y ago
    China's Social Credit Score is very close to becoming reality in USA as well :)
Macross8299 8y ago
Unpopular opinion: someone who welches on their debt SHOULD have their reputation blackened for a reasonably long time. When you default on your debt, it makes it much much harder on everyone else in the system. All other things being equal, your creditors (and their depositors) have to either accept lower interest rates as result of your irresponsibility or the other debtors have to be squeezed (1+1/n) times as hard, where n is the number of remaining debtors. I am glad this cross-border credit reporting is becoming a thing, if anything.
- markvdb 8y ago
  The only way I could agree with you would be when speaking about a reasonably intelligent, healthy individual not living where health is a bankruptcy lottery. As it stands now - and I apologise if I completely misunderstood a poorly written comment meant well - your comment sounds like coming from a Martin Shkreli-like sociopath. "To welch on one's debt"[0], if I have to believe the Merriam-Webster diary, means to avoid payment, and has gained an offensive connotation. You might want to be more careful about your use of language describing such a sensitive subject as debt. Defaulting on one's debt is not necessarily due to irresponsibility. People sometimes have really bad luck for example. Or they're just plain stupid, with insufficient regulation in place to protect them from their own limited intelligence. One might also want to look at the context of borrowing, from a human perspective. I'll give just one example. The lender side of the equation. There's plenty of irresponsible lenders, often with far too little regulation. My native Belgium has some interesting lending regulations: * All loans taken by individuals are gathered in a database run by the national bank. * Lenders are legally obliged to check the lending database before offering a loan, in order to assess the risk. If they don't, or if they recklessly extend a loan, the borrower can legally walk away from it. * Lenders are required to obey strict APR limits [1], or they risk the borrower legally walking away with the principal, and without interest payments. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/welch https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/welch [1] https://economie.fgov.be/nl/themas/financiele-diensten/consumentenkrediet/kredietkosten/maximale-tarieven https://economie.fgov.be/nl/themas/financiele-diensten/consu...
  - fwn 8y ago
onetimemanytime 8y ago
You have to agree to it AFAIK. Banks could always ask you for you USA or Indian Credit Report.

Yay now I can go in to debt and have it follow me I’m around the entire world!

nine_k 8y ago

That is, you cannot borrow someone else's money and try to run with them to a different country? Seems only logical.

delfinom 8y ago
On the other hand, it could people to identity theft you and open cards in your name abroad and good luck dealing with that shit show.
- fwn 8y ago
  It is true that identity theft is a bad thing. It's unconnected to a different bad thing, which is people not paying what they owe. ...people (not you, I just think it's fitting) often think that being lax on credit is helping the poor or making the world a better place by some kind of self-enforced redistribution. It is, however, far better to have strong contractual and property institutions while caring for those in need with well established legal and economic structures. (This could be a full welfare state, but could also be any other set of policies targeting the same problem.) I have, for example, strong feelings about the idea that there are some loans you can't default on. But if that turns out to be a societal problem it needs to be solved there, not through a lack of enforcement for the few who leave the country.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Here's the problem though: the money is there to push for strong contractual and property institutions, but there isn't much for adding the "caring for those in need" part. They should go in lockstep, but they don't. I agree with you wrt. how things should be, but I do empathize with people who use lax enforcement as a way to escape inhumane regulatory conditions.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    > ...people (not you, I just think it's fitting) often think that being lax on credit is helping the poor or making the world a better place by some kind of self-enforced redistribution. Is this risk not the reason interest is charged? If you want perfect enforcement of all loans, interest must go to 0, otherwise the interest is pure profit.
jlokier 8y ago
You can have ruined credit without owing any money, and it takes a very long time for it to go away. See also: "I was declared deceased three times and it destroyed my credit" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322 https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/bctflo/i_have_been_declared_deceased_for_15_months_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/bctflo/i_h... You can also have ruined credit through no actions of your own, without knowing that you do, until that day you try to rent an apartment or a phone contract or whatever, and everywhere turns you down and you don't know why. You can also have ruined credit, oddly, while having a large amount of savings at the same time. I don't know about other countries, but in the UK, the credit reference agencies don't keep track of bank deposits (even though they do keep track of bank overdrafts), so you can have say £100,000 in the bank, while being unable to get a £1000 limit credit card or £1000 loan (which you might choose if you wanted to keep the £100k in a tax-efficient account), not even at the same bank. It's surprisingly easy to have a ruined credit rating through no fault of your own, without knowing, if you aren't obsessive about checking. For example: When the credit reference agencies (CRAs) hold incorrect information about you. Or accounts that don't exist and which have entirely fictional transactions on them, which of course are never paid because they aren't real and start flagging as "overdue", because some utility leaves accounts that are closed open in the CRA files for years later, and then add bogus transactions years later, which magically disappear when you ask the company if you owe them anything (I'm looking at you BT). In the UK, if your CRA record address doesn't match a local government address for you, there's quite a severe penalty to the credit score. Most people don't know that, but CRA data often has errors like that, which can be difficult to correct (I'm looking at you Equifax "it will take us 8 weeks to respond to your complaint, and please send us a copy of your passport"). Eventually you may find this out and call each of them individually to make a correction. And then find, each time you correct it, it periodically gets replaced with incorrect data automatically, because some system has an incorrect address database and uses it to automatically "improve" data back to the erroneous version (I'm looking at you Experian).
black-tea 8y ago
By "someone else's" you surely mean "the bank's money". I don't think individuals are going to benefit from this, just a few large players around the world.
- Macross8299 8y ago
  The money that banks loan out is not entirely their money.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    Banks are not like a giant piggy bank with your savings in it. They create money when they create loans. They're not protecting "your money" with things like this, they are protecting their profits.
  - cam_l 8y ago
    Or even money at all.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    A large percentage of it is entirely their money. And in fact, not even actual money somebody at the bank owns, just numbers on their ledger (that they still make interest from borrowers off). In fact, there's most of the money the banks loan is not "somebody else's" at all, it's "loan money". https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/27-4-how-banks-create-money/ https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/27-4-how...
    - ddingus 8y ago
      Money created at the time of the loan. There is (in simple terms) as much money as people can reasonably borrow.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  And? Is a bank not worthy of the same rights as everyone else?
mythealias 8y ago
I would rather have police follow through on this rather than private businesses.
- darawk 8y ago
  You want police to enforce debt collection?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hedora 8y ago
    If the US hadn’t systematically defunded and outsourced the court system, lenders could take defaulting debtors to (small claims) court, and they could check court records before lending money. That would completely eliminate the debt collection industry, secondary debt markets, credit reporting agencies, and so on. But, raising taxes to pay for it is “too expensive”, so we pay orders of magnitude more in credit card processing fees, credit report monitoring, etc.
    - darawk 8y ago
      Huh? It is your contention that replacing our current system with...the court system would be less expensive?
    - jbottoms 8y ago
      I agree the courts have issues. Courts have given me (Pro se) faslse information and refused to answer procedural questions. In what sense are you referring to outsourcing? Could you explain you outsourcing view
baybal2 8y ago
> That is, you cannot borrow someone else's money and try to run with them to a different country? Seems only logical. And you can not complain about any random company nuking your credit rating to zero after failed automatic payment. Seems only logical. Had a friend who ran into that after Bell Canada billed his closed account. I was like "and what so?," but the guy was almost moved to tears. Before that, I never gave regard to people telling that "you should be very cautious closing a bank account"
coldtea 8y ago
Those borrowing are much more than those that lent money. And the latter by definition have more money to burn. So not sure if what you say is the more social damaging scenario or the inverse... Just pointing that across countries and cultures, human civilization has had a constant, throughout millennia, disfavor, of those lenting money, and of interest in particular.
londons_explore 8y ago
I wonder what would happen if at the airport they wouldn't let you fly unless you could prove that all your assets more than cover all your debts in the country you're flying from?
- prolikewhoa 8y ago
  China's Social Credit Score is very close to becoming reality in USA as well :)

Macross8299 8y ago

Unpopular opinion: someone who welches on their debt SHOULD have their reputation blackened for a reasonably long time. When you default on your debt, it makes it much much harder on everyone else in the system. All other things being equal, your creditors (and their depositors) have to either accept lower interest rates as result of your irresponsibility or the other debtors have to be squeezed (1+1/n) times as hard, where n is the number of remaining debtors. I am glad this cross-border credit reporting is becoming a thing, if anything.

markvdb 8y ago
The only way I could agree with you would be when speaking about a reasonably intelligent, healthy individual not living where health is a bankruptcy lottery. As it stands now - and I apologise if I completely misunderstood a poorly written comment meant well - your comment sounds like coming from a Martin Shkreli-like sociopath. "To welch on one's debt"[0], if I have to believe the Merriam-Webster diary, means to avoid payment, and has gained an offensive connotation. You might want to be more careful about your use of language describing such a sensitive subject as debt. Defaulting on one's debt is not necessarily due to irresponsibility. People sometimes have really bad luck for example. Or they're just plain stupid, with insufficient regulation in place to protect them from their own limited intelligence. One might also want to look at the context of borrowing, from a human perspective. I'll give just one example. The lender side of the equation. There's plenty of irresponsible lenders, often with far too little regulation. My native Belgium has some interesting lending regulations: * All loans taken by individuals are gathered in a database run by the national bank. * Lenders are legally obliged to check the lending database before offering a loan, in order to assess the risk. If they don't, or if they recklessly extend a loan, the borrower can legally walk away from it. * Lenders are required to obey strict APR limits [1], or they risk the borrower legally walking away with the principal, and without interest payments. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/welch https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/welch [1] https://economie.fgov.be/nl/themas/financiele-diensten/consumentenkrediet/kredietkosten/maximale-tarieven https://economie.fgov.be/nl/themas/financiele-diensten/consu...
- fwn 8y ago

onetimemanytime 8y ago

You have to agree to it AFAIK. Banks could always ask you for you USA or Indian Credit Report.